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Old 03-05-2016, 05:58   #16
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
So the claims of being cheap are pure marketing with no substance.
My comment on the price was based on the build method (Intelligent Infusion, see Intelligent Infusion – Harryproa) . On the hulls we have built so far, this reduces the labour substantially. It also removes a lot of the skill required and the mess and waste compared to conventional build methods.

Harryproas are lighter than similar length/space cats, so require less materials which cost less. For example, 12m/40' Bucket List will weigh 500 kgs/1,100 lbs in sailing trim, the C60/18m about 4,000 kgs/8,800 lbs and the 40F about 1,000 kgs/2,240 lbs.

Less labour and less materials means lower cost.

A ball park cost will be a lot closer to the $US 50,000 for Bucket List than the ~$US300,000 for the C60 Cruiser 60 – Harryproa. Bucket List is built with a work boat finish and little interior in Australia where the daily rate for a boat builder is about 10 times that in Peru, where the C60 is being built with a glamour finish and all the bells and whistles.

Animation of the 40F folding is now at Harryproa 40F – WIP – Harryproa and the harryproa facebook page
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:14   #17
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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Originally Posted by rob denney View Post
My comment on the price was based on the build method (Intelligent Infusion, see Intelligent Infusion – Harryproa) . On the hulls we have built so far, this reduces the labour substantially. It also removes a lot of the skill required and the mess and waste compared to conventional build methods.

Harryproas are lighter than similar length/space cats, so require less materials which cost less. For example, 12m/40' Bucket List will weigh 500 kgs/1,100 lbs in sailing trim, the C60/18m about 4,000 kgs/8,800 lbs and the 40F about 1,000 kgs/2,240 lbs.

Less labour and less materials means lower cost.

A ball park cost will be a lot closer to the $US 50,000 for Bucket List than the ~$US300,000 for the C60 Cruiser 60 – Harryproa. Bucket List is built with a work boat finish and little interior in Australia where the daily rate for a boat builder is about 10 times that in Peru, where the C60 is being built with a glamour finish and all the bells and whistles.

Animation of the 40F folding is now at Harryproa 40F – WIP – Harryproa and the harryproa facebook page
Now we are getting somewhere:

"Bucket List" appears to be cool day boat and without cruising amenities, cost and weight will be much lower (I've built a couple small boats and the hull is the easy part. It's the finish and fitting out that eats up time and dollars). I would expect similar if you make an over size 40' hobiecat. I used to know a guy with a Stillette which was little more than a 27' hobiecat and that thing would absolutely fly but mostly because it was stripped down for speed with next to nothing in terms of amenities.

I can buy the argument they are lighter and cheaper based on length but the 40F that was the start of this thread has nothing close to a 40' cats accommodations. It appears to be probably is only around 1/2 the accommodations of my 34' cat (though probably a good bit faster). I think we had this discussion before but you can achieve similar performance by stretching a small cat without adding accommodations. If you leave everything else alone, you will add very little weight but a lot of speed compared to similar length boats (new stretched length)

Local labor costs and infusion process aren't proa specific so that's a red herring to bring into the discussion. If the goal is to save money by building with a cheap labor pool, you can do that with any design.

Of course if the 60 is $300 based on cheap labor that suggests it would easily be in the million dollar range if built in most developed countries and thus the 40 would probably be upwards of $300-500k.
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Old 03-05-2016, 16:58   #18
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

Hey Rob,
As the owner of probably the most similar design to this actually on the water, I have a question.
How will you keep the hulls from racking fore and aft?
My boat uses a large set of stays that form an "x" under the bridge deck.
Seems the easiest, most bombproof way to do it, but it would eliminate your awesome tender/sled design idea.



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Old 03-05-2016, 22:13   #19
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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Now we are getting somewhere:

"Bucket List" appears to be cool day boat and without cruising amenities, cost and weight will be much lower (I've built a couple small boats and the hull is the easy part. It's the finish and fitting out that eats up time and dollars). I would expect similar if you make an over size 40' hobiecat. I used to know a guy with a Stillette which was little more than a 27' hobiecat and that thing would absolutely fly but mostly because it was stripped down for speed with next to nothing in terms of amenities.
Bucket List is a 40' charter race boat suitable for anyone who knows how to sail. There is nothing remotely like it. The M32 is the nearest. A 32' cat which costs 3-4 times as much, weighs more and requires 4 experts to race it.

I agree about the fit out taking the time with conventional builds. This and my lack of work ethic were driving forces behind the development of Intelligent Infusion. The fit out is all infused at the correct sizes and then glued in place into slots or landings. There is no wet laminating or subsequent fairing required. The time, weight and mess savings are enormous at the fit out stage.

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I can buy the argument they are lighter and cheaper based on length but the 40F that was the start of this thread has nothing close to a 40' cats accommodations. It appears to be probably is only around 1/2 the accommodations of my 34' cat (though probably a good bit faster).
Harryproas are also lighter based on accommodation.
Any idea what your 34' cat would cost as a conventional one off build? Or as a production build? Neither will be as low cost or as light as the 40F. You are correct that the 40F will be faster, plus it will be more seakindly (longer waterline), easier to sail and it will fit in a mono marina berth. Without knowing the model of your 34' cat, I can't comment on the relative space.
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I think we had this discussion before but you can achieve similar performance by stretching a small cat without adding accommodations. If you leave everything else alone, you will add very little weight but a lot of speed compared to similar length boats (new stretched length)
This is often stated, but as far as I know, no one has ever done so. Many cats are extended because they are too heavy. None are extended for better performance. Presumably because the gains are not worth the extra weight etc

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Local labor costs and infusion process aren't proa specific so that's a red herring to bring into the discussion. If the goal is to save money by building with a cheap labor pool, you can do that with any design.
It was not meant as a red herring. I included it to show the difficulty of answering your request for "a price". The Intelligent Infusion process is a big part of what makes it cheaper. It does not apply to "any design".
A better example is the Visionarry Rare Bird. This is a 50'ter built in cedar strip and finished to a high standard for long term cruising. Took 4,000 hours to build, ex the rig. An equivalent version, built using Intelligent Infusion would take half as many hours. No specific boats to prove this, but we have done a lot of testing (incl 3 x 50' hulls, 2 x 66', 1 x 40', 3 x 25') during the Intelligent Infusion development process and I have been involved with ~100 strip plank catamaran builds, so I am confident of the numbers.

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Of course if the 60 is $300 based on cheap labor that suggests it would easily be in the million dollar range if built in most developed countries and thus the 40 would probably be upwards of $300-500k.
No 'of course' about it. The labour (using Intelligent Infusion) is not that big a part of the cost and is mostly offset by expensive materials, lower skills and other expenses relating to offshore building. Rare Bird cost $300,000, ready to cruise. The C60 built in Australia would cost a little more. The 40F less than half as much.

Solarbri,
Definitely the most similar, I doubt we would have done it without knowing how well your boat works. I hope our paths cross one day so we can compare the boats.

Fore and aft racking in the centre is taken by the holding pin in the beams. As the extension piece is so long, the loads on this are not high. The windward hull beam ends are kept in place by the ends of the windward hull and the lee hull ends by the toy box.
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Old 03-05-2016, 22:50   #20
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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This is often stated, but as far as I know, no one has ever done so. Many cats are extended because they are too heavy. None are extended for better performance. Presumably because the gains are not worth the extra weight etc
To varying degrees it has been done but most cruisers are focused on comfort more than speed, so comfort sells.

The gains are definitely there but once you start talking haul out and marina fees (most new large boats are sold to people who won't have major misgivings about using marinas), there is a big cost issue. That is one place where a folding proa has an advantage except that it also appears to have minimal accommodation for the size.
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Old 06-05-2016, 11:19   #21
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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To varying degrees it has been done but most cruisers are focused on comfort more than speed, so comfort sells.
in multihulls?
most buyers would be looking for more stable platforms and improvements in accommodation. Cats provide this with double berths which are provided in mirror image hulls with 2 to 4 double berth cabins, even in smaller lengths.

So the platforms themselves are more comfortable anyway, just slow because of excessive wetted area to squeeze double berths into what would ordinarily be narrower hulls. What came first?

This whether a multiplicity of double cabins are needed or not, as in all cases where only one double cabin is required. It is the charter industry that has made this demand on production boat hulls. And an evacuation of the boat building industry from smaller lighter cruisers to more adaptable 38ft and up designs. Again hulls more suitable for charter boats, still overly beamy and therefore slower..

Hobby horsing is being tackled but was an almost universal accessory for cats, and slamming is progressively alleviated because buyers are staying away from designs that dont offer enough bridgedeck clearance.

So we come to the proa, with offset wave piercing bows a more comfortable motion anyway, faster in any event, and adequate accommodation if your needs are not skewed to the charter industry or beholding to a passenger list.
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Old 06-05-2016, 23:44   #22
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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in multihulls?
most buyers would be looking for more stable platforms and improvements in accommodation. Cats provide this with double berths which are provided in mirror image hulls with 2 to 4 double berth cabins, even in smaller lengths.

So the platforms themselves are more comfortable anyway, just slow because of excessive wetted area to squeeze double berths into what would ordinarily be narrower hulls. What came first?

This whether a multiplicity of double cabins are needed or not, as in all cases where only one double cabin is required. It is the charter industry that has made this demand on production boat hulls. And an evacuation of the boat building industry from smaller lighter cruisers to more adaptable 38ft and up designs. Again hulls more suitable for charter boats, still overly beamy and therefore slower..

Hobby horsing is being tackled but was an almost universal accessory for cats, and slamming is progressively alleviated because buyers are staying away from designs that dont offer enough bridgedeck clearance.

So we come to the proa, with offset wave piercing bows a more comfortable motion anyway, faster in any event, and adequate accommodation if your needs are not skewed to the charter industry or beholding to a passenger list.
The first part of what you are saying is completely consistent with my point. Once you get over 35' it's the extremely rare to find a buyer willing to sacrifice comfort and accommodations to get blazing fast speed. This is particularly troublesome in the fact that the care and feeding of a 60' boat with the accommodations of a 30' boat will still have the 60' costs for slips, haul outs and other ongoing care.

But if you consider it more as a range, you will find a lot of the older designs with full bridge decks had more accommodation than newer boats that have switched over to netting for the foredeck. Then there are boats that started with more performance focus but shifted based on demand. I never got to sail one so I'm not sure how well they did but the original maincat just had a bimini and accommodations were in the hulls. Over time they seem to have transitioned to a more typical cruising cat. This is consistent with buys prioritizing comfort over speed.

You do get some high end boats (gunboat, outremer, etc...) but they are playing the game of...you can have speed, comfort and cheap price...pick any two...except they gave up the cheap price, so there are lots of pricey weight saving features. Even so, they tend to have significantly less accommodation compared to similar size boats...ie: they have essentially extended the hulls to get better speed.

Most of the truly fast cats are one-off boats where that extremely rare buyer is willing to sacrifice everything else to get speed.

The proas appear to be playing in that last category. The 40F proa has less than 1/3 of the accommodations of a typical 40' cat. It's a complete sacrifice of accommodations that should result in good speed potential. It's not the hull configuration.

I will agree that some buyers just get silly when they come on asking about a 50-60' cat as necessary for a couple cruising by themselves. It's way more accommodations than really needed but it's really hard to sell what the market doesn't want. Once you add decent accommodations to a proa you will wind up with speed potentials similar to a cat, probably a little slower as the hulls get fatter to accommodate the extra weight.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:43   #23
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

If you have the stern of the tender pivoted down to power the boat, what happens when you need to reverse without room to turn the proa around?

I like the rig and the lightness, and the accommodation is just enough.
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Old 08-05-2016, 01:29   #24
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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The first part of what you are saying is completely consistent with my point. Once you get over 35' it's the extremely rare to find a buyer willing to sacrifice comfort and accommodations to get blazing fast speed.
if comfort is being able to sleep in 4 double berths at once, and you equate that to be 'comfort' then you are absolutely correct, otherwise it is unsubstantiated, misconstrued hype

the difference between a cat and a proa is that the proa will have less accommodation. It will offer a smoother ride than the default cat and be faster

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360
The proas appear to be playing in that last category. The 40F proa has less than 1/3 of the accommodations of a typical 40' cat. It's a complete sacrifice of accommodations that should result in good speed potential. It's not the hull configuration.
these proas in particular compare with cats equivalent to the length of the windward hull, which on the 40F is 30ft. At that it is true that a proa will have less nooks and crannies for accommodation, which only proves a profit when one can use those extra berths. A lot of cat owners just use those spaces for storage, for that there is the leeward hull.

As for the proa, the leeward hull is very quick to put together which cancels the work and cost of half a cat. So the additional speed safety and comfort, less labour for a quicker cheaper build is the gift.

Perhaps that isnt for everyone, but it doesnt need to be.
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Old 08-05-2016, 03:02   #25
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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if comfort is being able to sleep in 4 double berths at once, and you equate that to be 'comfort' then you are absolutely correct, otherwise it is unsubstantiated, misconstrued hype

the difference between a cat and a proa is that the proa will have less accommodation. It will offer a smoother ride than the default cat and be faster



these proas in particular compare with cats equivalent to the length of the windward hull, which on the 40F is 30ft. At that it is true that a proa will have less nooks and crannies for accommodation, which only proves a profit when one can use those extra berths. A lot of cat owners just use those spaces for storage, for that there is the leeward hull.

As for the proa, the leeward hull is very quick to put together which cancels the work and cost of half a cat. So the additional speed safety and comfort, less labour for a quicker cheaper build is the gift.

Perhaps that isnt for everyone, but it doesnt need to be.
First, it appears to have significantly less space than most 30' cats. Hard to place an exact number as under 30' the accommodations in cats drop drastically.

But from a marketing perspective and an ongoing slip/haul out perspective, it's a 40' boat.

Again, it's not so much the hull style but the fact you are accepting far less accommodation that is the big difference. 40' cats are much more expensive because accommodation space is a lot more expensive to provide than simply glassing up a hull. You can do the exact same thing by stretching a cat. It will cost next to nothing to stretch a 30' cat to 40' (assuming you start at the beginning of the design process of course) and it will result in a much faster and more comfortable design.

Certainly a not every boat is for everyone and if it catches your fancy, nothing wrong with building one. But looking at why these boats can be built cheaply and still result in a fast speeds not because of some special properties of Proas but because they have been designed with minimal accommodations to keep the weight down and that design approach can just as easily be applied to cats, tris and to a degree even monos.
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Old 08-05-2016, 15:50   #26
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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First, it appears to have significantly less space than most 30' cats. Hard to place an exact number as under 30' the accommodations in cats drop drastically.

But from a marketing perspective and an ongoing slip/haul out perspective, it's a 40' boat.

Again, it's not so much the hull style but the fact you are accepting far less accommodation that is the big difference. 40' cats are much more expensive because accommodation space is a lot more expensive to provide than simply glassing up a hull. You can do the exact same thing by stretching a cat. It will cost next to nothing to stretch a 30' cat to 40' (assuming you start at the beginning of the design process of course) and it will result in a much faster and more comfortable design.

Certainly a not every boat is for everyone and if it catches your fancy, nothing wrong with building one. But looking at why these boats can be built cheaply and still result in a fast speeds not because of some special properties of Proas but because they have been designed with minimal accommodations to keep the weight down and that design approach can just as easily be applied to cats, tris and to a degree even monos.
Whilst plenty suggest and its easy to say a 40ft cat cat costs next to nothing more than a 30ft cat to build however in the real world this is not the case except perhaps for an owner builder.
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Old 08-05-2016, 18:16   #27
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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If you have the stern of the tender pivoted down to power the boat, what happens when you need to reverse without room to turn the proa around?

I like the rig and the lightness, and the accommodation is just enough.
At slow speeds, flat water, the stern of the tender will keep the transom out of the water. Otherwise, it can be lifted using the tackle that pulls it up to lock it for sailing.
A tiller extension to the outboard is an option if required for tight manoeuvring, but with the exceptional control offered by large fore and aft rudders, it probably won't be.

Valhalla,
Unless it is a short term charter boat, "space" and "accommodation" on a boat are not about how many bunks, or how much volume. They are about how it is used.

The 40F is designed for an experienced catamaran sailor who knows exactly how many people he wants sleeping on his boat. 2 permanently, with occasionally 2 more as guests. More than this using the shower, toilet and the coffeemaker in the morning is not fun. He did not need more than 2 double bunks, so we did not include them.

He wants a boat that fits in a shipping container, and also in a mono berth.
That will sail fast in typical Chesapeake Bay light winds and safely and easily handle the North Atlantic when he sails South or East. With enough power to get home at 10 knots if he needs to.
A comfortable, sheltered spot to steer from, with all round vision including the sails without having to climb on and off a raised helmsmans seat.
Plenty of deck space for partying, without having to clamber on and off the foredeck when you want a drink. 17 people can sit comfortably (ie, feet lower than their waist) on the bridgedeck (5 seats, 6 on the lee hull, 6 in the tender), with standing/lounging room for another half dozen.
A galley and saloon that he can open up on sunny days and close on wet ones and a table that will seat 8 (5 in comfortable seats, 3 in folding canvas chairs).
A boat that can be sailed in 12" of water, and that he can reach under the hull while standing in waist deep water and scrub the bottom without getting his head wet.
With no through hulls to leak and no protrusions to get damaged if he runs aground.

He did not want the cost, weight and hassle of extras, or any sails that could jam in extremis and require him to leave the helm to fix them.

These attributes are far more important to him, and to me, than how many bunks are on the boat, which would have to be the weakest indication of "space" conceivable. If you know of any other boat that comes close to meeting these requirements, please let us know.

Your comments about weights and build times of proas are wrong. I pointed out why, with examples and reasons in my previous post. And repeatedly in previous threads.

Instead of continually stating what can and can't be done, could you provide some costings, times and weights to support your statements?

Some more 40F costing data.
On the harryproa chat group is a quote for the composite materials using the published materials list, at standard retail price for the 40F. Total is $AUS27,447.84. 10% of this is tax, so it equals $US18,526, plus local taxes. It does not include the vacuum bag materials, the pump or the mdf for the mould. These would add less than $1,000. It does include the carbon for the rudders, masts and beams.
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Old 08-05-2016, 20:00   #28
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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Whilst plenty suggest and its easy to say a 40ft cat cat costs next to nothing more than a 30ft cat to build however in the real world this is not the case except perhaps for an owner builder.
I'm not talking about taking an existing boat and grafting 5' onto either end. I'm talking about at the start of the design process leaving the accommodations and other features as it but extending the hulls and otherwise leaving the boat as if it was a 30' cat.

The extra hull is just a few gallons of resin and some fiberglass. Labor while laying up the hull is negligible (at most a couple of hours)...so on a production boat we are looking at maybe $1-2k on a $250k boat. That's less than 1%.
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Old 08-05-2016, 20:22   #29
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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Valhalla,
Unless it is a short term charter boat, "space" and "accommodation" on a boat are not about how many bunks, or how much volume. They are about how it is used.

The 40F is designed for an experienced catamaran sailor who knows exactly how many people he wants sleeping on his boat. 2 permanently, with occasionally 2 more as guests. More than this using the shower, toilet and the coffeemaker in the morning is not fun. He did not need more than 2 double bunks, so we did not include them.

I don't know if I would call them "experienced" as that has implications that may or may not apply. It's about a buyer who is willing to sacrifice accommodations for speed to an extreme level. Nothing wrong with that goal.

He wants a boat that fits in a shipping container, and also in a mono berth.
That will sail fast in typical Chesapeake Bay light winds and safely and easily handle the North Atlantic when he sails South or East. With enough power to get home at 10 knots if he needs to.

I've seen a couple ideas for cats that fit in shipping containers that take a similar minimalistic approach. They also claim high speed potential.

A comfortable, sheltered spot to steer from, with all round vision including the sails without having to climb on and off a raised helmsmans seat.
Plenty of deck space for partying, without having to clamber on and off the foredeck when you want a drink. 17 people can sit comfortably (ie, feet lower than their waist) on the bridgedeck (5 seats, 6 on the lee hull, 6 in the tender), with standing/lounging room for another half dozen.

Again, this is an open bridge deck cat design you are describing.

A galley and saloon that he can open up on sunny days and close on wet ones and a table that will seat 8 (5 in comfortable seats, 3 in folding canvas chairs). You got me there I really only have room for 1 chair at the end of the table, so on my boat, I can only sit 7 comfortably.
A boat that can be sailed in 12" of water, and that he can reach under the hull while standing in waist deep water and scrub the bottom without getting his head wet. Got me again. I have 50% more draft, a whole 18"...though if the hulls were stretched by 10', it could probably be redesigned to shave a few inches off the draft.
With no through hulls to leak and no protrusions to get damaged if he runs aground. With a change to a composting head, again you are describing any of the small outboard powered cats.

He did not want the cost, weight and hassle of extras, or any sails that could jam in extremis and require him to leave the helm to fix them. I think you need to explain this one. I think I know what you are implying but I'll let you clarify.

These attributes are far more important to him, and to me, than how many bunks are on the boat, which would have to be the weakest indication of "space" conceivable. If you know of any other boat that comes close to meeting these requirements, please let us know.

Your comments about weights and build times of proas are wrong. I pointed out why, with examples and reasons in my previous post. And repeatedly in previous threads. Other than a resin infusion process (applicable to most hull configurations), I must have missed it.

Instead of continually stating what can and can't be done, could you provide some costings, times and weights to support your statements? I've seen several threads claiming cheaper cost but no unbiased data to back it up (saying could build it in a country where labor is 1/4 typical rates could be applied to any hull configurations). I'm merely responding to an unrealistic claim. Until comparable examples are provided, the burden of supporting the claim that this design is cheaper is on the one making the claim.

Some more 40F costing data.
On the harryproa chat group is a quote for the composite materials using the published materials list, at standard retail price for the 40F. Total is $AUS27,447.84. 10% of this is tax, so it equals $US18,526, plus local taxes. It does not include the vacuum bag materials, the pump or the mdf for the mould. These would add less than $1,000. It does include the carbon for the rudders, masts and beams.
The raw materials to build a hull are small percentage of the cost. It's the materials to fit out the boat and the labor that eat up the lions share of the cost.
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Old 08-05-2016, 21:09   #30
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Re: New Harryproa 40F Design Appears

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The raw materials to build a hull are small percentage of the cost. It's the materials to fit out the boat and the labor that eat up the lions share of the cost.
back in post #22 you said
"The 40F proa has less than 1/3 of the accommodations of a typical 40' cat."

If you are comfortable with your own opinions, clearly the cost comparison is in the positive
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