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Old 24-05-2007, 16:26   #16
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As far as a forward cockpit goes I would be carefull. It would be nice to have a forward and an aft cockpit. Being exposed to spray and wind for a very long passage could be tiresome.
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Forward cockpit's................they can be very wet, and cold.
I agree with both these comments and myself am not a big fan of forward cockpits. What I was suggesting is a working forward cockpit (a "workpit"?). This would be a small area, roughly 1 meter square, just behind the mast, accesible from the cabin where all sail handing would take place. Halliards, sheets, traveler controls, daggerboard controls, reefing lines could all be led here. The wheel and engine controls would be an arms reach away in the cabin/wheelhouse. There would be no seats. All civilized activity would take place in the protected aft cockpit ("loungepit"?). An interesting option.

Mike
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Old 24-05-2007, 16:30   #17
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You're going to end up spending a lot more money than you think on a one-off, unproven boat, with zero resale value and spend 3000 to 4000 hours of your life building it.

Wouldn't it make more sense to compromise, and buy a proven design?

Rick in Florida
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Old 25-05-2007, 01:00   #18
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It might make more sense to buy a proven design, but there isn't one out there I like and the plan is to keep the boat till either it sinks or i do. Even we where talking about making the sensible decision half of us probably shouldn't buy a boat in the first place as it probably gets used about 20 times a year.

I am comprimising by having a potential low resale value for the boat but I will enjoy it and not be thinking I wish it was like this. Plus when somebody says to me when its finished "thats a nice boat who's design is it", it will be even more pleasurable to say that I designed and built it.

To say the re-sale value will be zero is rather extreme. If the boat is pleasing to the eye and meets all the needs of the customer and has proven itself by being on the water for several years then it will sell. If James Wharram followed the same advise we would be missing out on loads of developments and excellant designs.

Everyone has to take a risk sometime in their lives. I'm lucky in the fact that I'm at an age where I can take a big risk and still recover.

I'm going to have a cockpit at the stern but will also have a set of controls at the base of the mast.
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Old 25-05-2007, 01:10   #19
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Wow! Scratch boat? Seems like a good open ocean story would take care of the resale value. School project? Where are the funds and time for such a thing? I would help you build it just for fun.
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Old 25-05-2007, 03:33   #20
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It's a project I was planning on doing but I'm going to make it part of my final year university project. My final year of uni is in 2 years.

The funds are coming from my day job as a engineer for Land rover. The time will be evenings and weekends.

Bridgedeck Clearance is to be a minimum of 0.8m.
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Old 25-05-2007, 09:21   #21
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workpit

Steven,

Although I have never designed and/or built a boat of any type other than a canoe, I am sure you will enjoy the project. Yes, there will be times of frustration and you can find any number of horror stories and tales of regrets. Still, there are just as many "success" stories from folks who had great results...it's a labor of love. (remember, measure three times...cut once.) When I suggested a forward cockpit, I was really talking about a "workpit" as Mike explained. If you haven't checked out the gunboat 62, I think you should; If for no other reason than a WOW experience. I'm gonna get one as soon as I get a spare 2 million

MM
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Old 25-05-2007, 12:54   #22
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forward cockpits

I have to disagree with the general opinion on forward cockpits. No colder nor wetter than an aft cockpit; maybe even less so, as cat's tend to be travelled with the wind more than against it. And if it is really inclement then retreat to the pilothouse, which actually allows a decent view forward. In days of yore, when we used nothing but tillers, then it made sense to have the cockpit aft, but that is no longer a design constraint. I fail to see the attraction of putting the steering position where the view forward is most impeded. I've also seen some centre cockpit designs that look quite sharp. If I were designing from the ground up, I would certainly consider all options. My 2 cents.

Kevin
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Old 25-05-2007, 14:01   #23
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I agree that it would be much more sensible to go with a proven design with good resale value rather than design one yourself to suit your own needs. However, as Steven points out, the mere act of buying a boat is in itself not a sensible thing to do.

Maybe it can be looked at like this:

As an investment, buying a boat sucks. Even a popular, well built production boat will depreciate. If you buy a boat with an eye towards resale you will invevitably end up with a very mainstream type boat designed to suit the majority of buyers. If one's own requirements differ from that of the majority you will end up with a boat that you are not entirely happy with. You dare not make any real modifications or you will endanger the resale value. The bright side is that it will be easier to sell and you will get a better price when you do sell.

On the other hand, what if you do as Steven is planning? Design a boat to your exact specifications (after, of course, soliciting the wisdom of those on forums such as this ). Invest the money saved on plans in something that provides a return. Keep the boat for the forseeable future (20, 30 years?) because it is just the way you like it. Make any modifications you like along the way because it is your boat and you don't give a damn about resale. If and when you sell, any difference in the price you get between your dream boat and the stock design may well be offset by the wise(?) investment you made years before.
(This assumes that it would be cheaper to design yourself and have the plans checked by a naval architect rather than having a naval architect modify his own plans to suit.)
It is not the easy way to go as there are bound to be countless frustrations along the way. On the other hand, for someone with a dream and fire in the belly it could be just the ticket.

Mike
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Old 25-05-2007, 14:48   #24
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Originally Posted by mikereed100
I agree that it would be much more sensible to go with a proven design with good resale value rather than design one yourself to suit your own needs. However, as Steven points out, the mere act of buying a boat is in itself not a sensible thing to do.

Maybe it can be looked at like this:

As an investment, buying a boat sucks. Even a popular, well built production boat will depreciate. If you buy a boat with an eye towards resale you will invevitably end up with a very mainstream type boat designed to suit the majority of buyers. If one's own requirements differ from that of the majority you will end up with a boat that you are not entirely happy with. You dare not make any real modifications or you will endanger the resale value. The bright side is that it will be easier to sell and you will get a better price when you do sell.

On the other hand, what if you do as Steven is planning? Design a boat to your exact specifications (after, of course, soliciting the wisdom of those on forums such as this ). Invest the money saved on plans in something that provides a return. Keep the boat for the forseeable future (20, 30 years?) because it is just the way you like it. Make any modifications you like along the way because it is your boat and you don't give a damn about resale. If and when you sell, any difference in the price you get between your dream boat and the stock design may well be offset by the wise(?) investment you made years before.
(This assumes that it would be cheaper to design yourself and have the plans checked by a naval architect rather than having a naval architect modify his own plans to suit.)
It is not the easy way to go as there are bound to be countless frustrations along the way. On the other hand, for someone with a dream and fire in the belly it could be just the ticket.

Mike
Pretty much my thought's.

Dave
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Old 25-05-2007, 14:52   #25
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Originally Posted by Lodesman
I have to disagree with the general opinion on forward cockpits. No colder nor wetter than an aft cockpit; maybe even less so, as cat's tend to be travelled with the wind more than against it. And if it is really inclement then retreat to the pilothouse, which actually allows a decent view forward. In days of yore, when we used nothing but tillers, then it made sense to have the cockpit aft, but that is no longer a design constraint. I fail to see the attraction of putting the steering position where the view forward is most impeded. I've also seen some centre cockpit designs that look quite sharp. If I were designing from the ground up, I would certainly consider all options. My 2 cents.

Kevin
Don't know if you have done much multi sailing Kevin, but once you get above about 15 knot's off the breeze the firehose is on.

Pretty wet doing 8+ uphill as well.

How do you see the telltales and dump sheet's fast from the pilothouse???

Dave
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Old 25-05-2007, 18:48   #26
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Dave,

I have no experience sailing multi's, so I'll have to defer to you and others on the board that do. I didn't realize spray behaves differently between mono's and multi's. Anyway, you'll have to explain your comment - where's the spray generated and what gets wet in which wind?
How do you see the telltales with a bimini? Fair point about the sheets, but I'm guessing that there are plenty of sailors who will retreat inside when it's miserable outside - better to maintain the watch from a pilothouse than a salon.

Kevin
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Old 25-05-2007, 19:24   #27
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Spray is generated off of hull's from speed, something Mono's lack

The pic's are only off relatively small boat's,28 to 33 ft, but it is also relatively flat water.

The first one is my last cat doing 14 knot's in about 14 knot's of wind on a reach, the next two are Pescott Fireflies in Thailand.

A big cat would be relatively dry in these condition's, but add more wave and wind and the bigger boat would start getting wet as well.

Of course you could put the brakes on a bit, but where is the fun in that?

Multi's are about fast passage times.

Telltales, well usually someone has there head out, and most good sailing cat's have a steering position either side so the helmsman can see sailshape and telltales.

No one on the sheet's!!!!!!!,
that's how they can end up upside down. Good Multi's can accelerate very fast, and thing's can get hairy for the unwary when hit by a gust, or even when the boat is "in the groove". The ability to dump sheet's fast has and will save many a capsize or near capsize.

Of course some of the charterey type boat's are very heavy, or underrigged which makes them a less lively option, but again , where is the fun in that.

Dave
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Old 26-05-2007, 02:15   #28
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Steven, have a look here: Bob Oram Design » 60′ C
There is also a 50 footer that might suit your needs.

Dave, bigger boats are a fair bit dryer
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Old 26-05-2007, 05:05   #29
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Steven, have a look here: Bob Oram Design 60′ C
There is also a 50 footer that might suit your needs.

Dave, bigger boats are a fair bit dryer
Of course they are, but I have still been on 50 footer's that have the firehose on at 20+ knot's, and have been on 40 footers that have had green over the cabin top soaking everyone.

This was fast cruising, not racing, and certainly not a common occurance, but I still say a fwd cockpit on a performance boat is going to be a wetter option than hiding begind a cockpit BH.

Dave
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Old 26-05-2007, 07:58   #30
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Dave,

I'm not sure if you're proving your point with those pics - it looks as though there's more spray behind the mast . Have you ever sailed in a boat with a fwd cockpit? I've read a couple of reviews on Chris White cats with fwd cockpits, and they seemed to be very positive.
I don't condone standing watch from inside the cabin, but have read enough cruisers' books and blogs to know it happens enough. There is the reality of short-handed long-distance cruising to be considered. Maybe, since the topic is about designing a cruising boat from the keels up, then there should be some discussion on the best rig - one that gives decent performance, but can be left unattended. Just a thought.

Kevin

BTW, I quite like the look of this cat: SMG-Multihull - sail the difference
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