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Old 03-09-2015, 12:43   #1
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New boat - what to get and from who

Hi,

Newbie here with a plan to order a new catamaran in about one year to then sell up house etc and commence liveaboard retirement

Have been reading websites, books, magazines, and visiting heaps of boat shows. Still am not even sure how much I don't know at this stage, but am fairly convinced a new 40' Lagoon, FP, or Leopard will suit my wife and I for a multi year live aboard life in SE Asia.

I was hoping this forum may be able to help with suggesting a "base point" of what options to tick on the manufacturers order form, and also what options or choices are best provided by the manufacturer and what are best fitted once you have taken possession.

Cheers
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Old 03-09-2015, 16:27   #2
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

smjack1,
There is actually a recent thread here (from just last month), that is almost directly on-point, with lots of specifics about "options" vs. "standard equipment", and what is acceptable to have fitted upon manufacture / at the factory, and what is almost always best to source elsewhere, and/or install / fit-out later (whether by yourself, a reputable professional, or the commissioning dealer..)
Please have a look here:

Frustration getting a straight answer on pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by smjack1 View Post
Hi,

Newbie here with a plan to order a new catamaran in about one year to then sell up house etc and commence liveaboard retirement

Have been reading websites, books, magazines, and visiting heaps of boat shows. Still am not even sure how much I don't know at this stage, but am fairly convinced a new 40' Lagoon, FP, or Leopard will suit my wife and I for a multi year live aboard life in SE Asia.

I was hoping this forum may be able to help with suggesting a "base point" of what options to tick on the manufacturers order form, and also what options or choices are best provided by the manufacturer and what are best fitted once you have taken possession.

Cheers
In brief:

I realize that if you're buying a new boat, you won't be buying a "shell" and then go back and install/outfit everything / every system!
So, things like engines, gensets, anchor windlasses, electric winches, aux pumps, refrig/freezer, etc. (and maybe Air Cond), depth and speed transducers, as well as ALL the wiring for marine electronics, etc., are of course things that the factory should be installing / commissioning....


One area that I would strongly encourage you to ask about a "factory option" or "factory upgrade" would be refrigeration / freezer insulation!!!!
This is a oft-overlooked feature, and one that is 100 times easier to do upon construction, versus afterwards!!!
You will NEVER regret spending the extra $$$ on upgraded refrigeration/freezer insulation...assuming that they actually do provide improved/upgraded insulation...(unless your sailing plans are for Alaska or the North Sea.....everywhere else, you'll LOVE it!!!)

[Not sure what is "standard" vs. "optional" on the various new boats you're considering...but in my opinion, most things that are "optional", are probably best sourced / commissioned elsewhere!!!
And, certainly everything on my list below are!!!]

Things like these are best sourced elsewhere:
--- anchors, chain, rode, and snubbers...
--- aux running rigging / spin halyards, etc....
--- optional sails, and associated rigging...
--- docklines, fenders, chafe guards, etc..
--- optional shore power cords...
--- optional shore power chargers...
--- optional hi-output alternators...
--- house batteries / optional house batteries...
--- most marine electronics...(except for depth and speed transducers), especially radios, etc.
--- TV's, DVD players, computers, Wi-Fi routers, etc...
--- solar panels, controllers, etc...
--- davits...hoists...
--- canvas, bimini tops, etc.
--- optional safety gear, liferafts, MOB pole, etc..
--- dinghies, outboards, etc...
--- water filters....
--- watermakers...
--- lee boards / lee cloths...

All of these are much better sourced / installed / commissioned elsewhere...sometimes by professionals that are experts in these areas, and sometimes by yourself!!
In addition to saving money, you will have far superior items/systems, and will get them installed/commissioned far better, and you will learn a LOT about your boat and all of these items/system in the process!!!



I hope this helps...

fair winds..

John
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Old 03-09-2015, 18:44   #3
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

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Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
I hope this helps...

fair winds..

John
It wasn't even my question and I just learned a hell of a lot, thanks John.
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:27   #4
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, smjack.
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Old 04-09-2015, 05:28   #5
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

Thanks very much John
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Old 04-09-2015, 08:01   #6
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

Things that require major surgery to install are best suited to purchase from the manufacturer as they already have her open and have easy access.

Things that bolt on are good to consider adding after the fact but not if you can get a good price from the manufacturer.

ie: an aircon system can be a huge project to install after the fact as it's much harder to run ducts, wiring, seawater connections etc... after everything is fully finished compared to putting stuff in before the liners go in.

In more general terms, I would think long and hard about what you feel is really needed and hold off on anything that is questionable. The boat has to be safe and functional but we found many of the extras we wanted to add, fell off the list once we got out cruising and we realized we didn't need them...others moved up the list as they quickly became neccessities. I won't tell you which items are which as it's very personal and our choices likely won't match your choices (nor will someone elses)
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Old 04-09-2015, 08:59   #7
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

smjack1
I purchased a Lagoon 450 1.5 years back and went through the same process, my boat is based in Singapore, not sure if you are SEA based or not but l would be willing to show you my boat and explain what makes life easier and what doesn't if you are unsure?

I know you are looking at a smaller boat but an air con is an air con and so on as we fitted our boat out with most of the extras.


SV TOT
Wayne 😃
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Old 04-09-2015, 09:14   #8
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

Quote:
Originally Posted by smjack1 View Post
Newbie here with a plan to order a new catamaran in about one year to then sell up house etc and commence liveaboard retirement
Smackie, sounds great... and not a confus overreaction... I am sure here are some very helpfully people.... and not only helpfully. Enjoyable, too.

Good luck !!

May I give a short impulse within your long list of "reading, thinking, watching, looking, searching" ?

Why not taking into account a "used cat" ? The boat market is down = very low prize... and you can get excellent boats in the prize range of 50% of a new boat by sure... still with the option for little bit refitting (e.g. different sails plan, rigging, interieur).

So you wont loose on first day 40% of the new boat prize (which is the reality)... as I follow the spirit: keep together own hard earn't money not throwing it out of the window too easily. :-)

Most warfts might take longer to deliver you a brand new boat. Are you sure to get one in 12 months ?? - The boat shows in Europe already started as it is close to autumn and end of sailing season... many others are following so they will fill their free capacities for custom built now:

HISWA - Inwater Boat Show Amsterdam (started 1st Sept)
Yachting Festival de Cannes (start 8th Sept) - very important for Multihull boat bulders ! Take a look at least virtually.
Interboat (start 19th Sept) - important for the region Switzerland/Austria/South Germany
Hanse Boat show (start 31st Oct) - important for the North European region (e.g. Baltic countries, Denmark/Sweden/Finland/Germany)
Salon Nautique Intern. de paris (start 5th Dec) - very important for Multihull boat bulders and the sales market in France + Carribean !
Boat Show Duesseldorf (start 23rd Jan 2016) - world biggest exhebition

... and the sales managers like to fill there their books with "special discounts" (up to 10-15% under regular prize). So pre-order will be required soon to get delivered by time.

With a "used boat" you don't have that stress... can buy one in spring next year, and then have enough time to equip it more individually.

About financing a "iving on a boat" via loan by specific lenders which is a smart way to keep cost control there exist another thread here on Cruisers forum. ;-) Might e worthfully to check it as I do it on my own (looking for my Trimaran to live on).

Just watched this video about from a couple who want buy a boat, too.


Have fun with your wife getting the new "swimming home" ! - Its an adventure...
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Old 04-09-2015, 09:37   #9
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

We are just a year past from collecting our boat in France a new Catana 42. The collection process was a hell of a ride in itself and only now 14 months later are all the additional add on's being completed. I feel like we could buy a new or second hand so much better now we have lived through this experience.

What disappointed me was the boatyard who are so experienced at selling and equipping boats were not helpful in sharing advice or prior experiences with us as new buyers. Our agent was super nice but probably not experienced enough at that stage to give quality advice so it was only on collection did we realise our mistakes.

Then we were shocked at how long it took to fix the minor issues that seem so acceptable and stock standard on a new boat. While in Canet we met Fountaine Pajot and Lagoon new buyers with the same experience of us.

The big items may be better to do elsewhere if you just get the wiring or plumbing in place. Our freezer cost 5000 euro yet I can buy the same or better quality in Greece for less than 2000 euros. We have only just fixed the leak from the install process ourselves as Catana seemed incapable of fixing whilst they had the boat and then reluctant to assist when we had departed. Buyer beware once you hand over the final payment the yard is keen to see the back of you.

Yards charge huge markups on the additional extras which you can do elsewhere for much cheaper, it depends on your time, convenience factor and how willing you are to do the work or organise via a second party.

Our blog goes through the journey in detail but I am happy to share more information if you wish to know what we put on, put on later and wished we had done at the beginning.

We wouldn't change our choice in vessel as the boat is fantastic and after some big weather experiences we can say we truly trust her. We plan to sell our boat at the end of next year and if I were you I would look for a new second hand boat that someone else has done all the hard yards on to get ready. This is what we plan to do next time!

Cheers
the Miss

Miss Catana
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Old 04-09-2015, 09:49   #10
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

oh.... I forgot to mention three other important boat shows. Sorry folks from UK ;-)

Southampton Boat show (start 11th Sept) - UK's biggest boat show where locally a lively multihull scene
Monaco Boat Show (start 23rd Sept) - Big Boat/Luxury Yachting
London Boat Show (start 8th Jan 2016) - Big Boat/Luxury Yachting
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:05   #11
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

Quote:
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What disappointed me was the boatyard who are so experienced at selling and equipping boats were not helpful in sharing advice or prior experiences with us as new buyers.
Hi, Miss Catana !

... boat warfts are there for building boats, thats their job. Mainly they focus their energy on that part and the few models they can build. And often they are not the best sailors. It is like shoe makers who can make good shoes, but wear on their own not the best ones. :-)

If a newbee really want get a clear head about all the troubles a "new" or "used boat" brings with it... my advice is to look for an independent consultant.

E.g. in the segment of trimarans we have a huge scene of self builders. The home builders buy the plans from the designers, and get steadily consulting from these designers. It is very worthfully to pay 10-12,000 US dollars for the plans inclusive this service... so the boat will become success as the designer's interest is to get an excellent reference.

In the world of monohulls its different, there we dont find so heavily self builded boats. And in the segment of "standard cats", e.g. Catanas, Fountain Pajots etc. .... it works same like we know it from monohull boat builders.

E.g. Certified (Marine) Surveyors are such folks, who do here an excellent job... independently, and 100% representing the interests of the contracter = new boat owner. - These guys know many, many different boat types... have seen all the nightmares a boat owner went through (by his own mistake or by mistakes done by suppliers or boat builders) over decades...

Such surveyors mostly have a technical background, e.g. engineering... and more these guys are excellent sailors and very often they are journalists, e.g. writing in yacht magazines about boats... and giving seminares and lectures during the big boat shows. They can give excellent advices as they have a background of experiences over ~30 years.

E.g. as I was professional skipper I consulted boat owners independently... as I have a different perspective onto boats, e.g. technically but same functionally. You have to deal this business 7 days per week keeping it under the radar to know what is going. A boat is more complexe than to build a house. :-)

In Germany, where I am settled for now, there exist only two marine surveyors with deeper knowledge about multihulls. Such guys are very rare... but they are worth every cent you pay them.

E.g. a survey they will write analyzing a "used boat" only cost some hundreds of dollars, they even can deal a 50-50% sharing contract, so 50% pays the owner of the survey, 50% pays the buyer of the survey... which then is a real good investment. Same good for the insurance company and to avoid following troubles.

As you say, its huge time intensive... you need to know the market in details to find quickly the adequate solution, not overprized.

Don't expect from boat builders a full service... its not just their "mentality". This extremly customer oriented service is time intensive and only happens in the segment of the expensive multi million dollar boats / exclusive yacht segment. There a new boat owner gets all "out of one hand".
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Old 04-09-2015, 10:57   #12
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

HI Skip JayR

This boating life is a learning life and I now know better. Thanks for the advice and I will keep in mind for next time. Appreciate the detailed response!

Cheers
the Miss

www.misscatana
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Old 06-09-2015, 02:06   #13
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

Thanks again for the feedback, proves to me the value of learning from those far more experienced than I.

Seemed there is value in purchasing new so that one can purchase what they need, or think that they need and want. However, from web searches it seems a rough rule of thumb could be that a <5 year old catamaran can be purchased for roughly 65% of the cost of new. Apart from the loss of the new boat smell one would also need, or want, to spend around 15% on top of the initial purchase price for upgrades and "personalisation" but end result you'd initially save A$175k for a reliable catamaran to suit a husband and wife liveaboard to suit a 5 - 6 year liveaboard.
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Old 06-09-2015, 04:48   #14
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

G'day Smjack1,
just looking at your question from a different perspective. We are currently living on our 2004 Lagoon 410 S2 which we purchased last year and now cruising the east coast of Australia. Just some thoughts,
1) A new boat is not an investment. It will depreciate quite a lot in its first five years.
2) To equip a boat to live a board is an expensive proposition. Buying a boat that is set up will save you a lot of money.
3) Hopefully a used boat will have a lot of the new bugs ironed out and you can take advantage previous owners installastions.
4) Retirement in most cases equates to getting older . Also equates to us getting slower and in some cases requiring other people to work on the boat for you which equates to extra costs.
5) To me what you are planning is a major change in lifestyle, it was for us and we are loving it but we are able to do it on an older boat AND at the same time kept our house which we can rent out or return to at any time if things don't work out.
Just some food for thought and consideration.

Greg H
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Old 06-09-2015, 05:00   #15
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Re: New boat - what to get and from who

G'day Smjack1,
just looking at your question from a different perspective. We are currently living on our 2004 Lagoon 410 S2 which we purchased last year and now cruising the east coast of Australia. Just some thoughts,
1) A new boat is not an investment. It will depreciate quite a lot in its first five years.
2) To equip a boat to live a board is an expensive proposition. Buying a boat that is set up will save you a lot of money.
3) Hopefully a used boat will have a lot of the new bugs ironed out and you can take advantage previous owners installastions.
4) Retirement in most cases equates to getting older . Also equates to us getting slower and in some cases requiring other people to work on the boat for you which equates to extra costs.
5) To me what you are planning is a major change in lifestyle, it was for us and we are loving it but we are able to do it on an older boat AND at the same time kept our house which we can rent out or return to at any time if things don't work out.
Just some food for thought and consideration.

Greg H
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