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Old 12-06-2016, 00:26   #31
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

I did not state that it is OK to overload a boat.

What I said was :-


I have seen O49 owners who have technically overloaded their boats.


I do not believe this will void insurance unless you are stupid enough to declare to the insurance company that the boat was overloaded.


What I also said was that there is no point spending a large amount of money on a performance boat if it will not perform due to weight carrying capacity.


In the end we agree on the same issue but for different reasons. You will not buy an O49 because of the maximum displacement spec and I will not buy one as overloading negates performance.


Interestingly, the O51 increases the weight carrying capacity markedly with the simple addition of 2 feet. Seems to be a contradiction there.


The insurance issue is a red herring.
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:27   #32
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I do believe the unladen weight would include batteries. They're part of the boat, IMO.
And 700 litres of water, plus a watermaker? Why?

I struggle to come even close to 4 tonne of "necessities". In fact when we moved house there wasn't 4 tonnes of stuff, including all the furniture, enough tools to rebuild a car, etc. Even a ride on mower.

I doubt if our load on board, including full water (400 litres) and fuel (300 litres) would go much over 2 tonnes.

Maybe I just don't realise all the "necessities" we're doing without. I do enjoy sailing the boat when others are motoring though.
There are CE rules about inclusons in "unladen weight". From memory it includes batteries, but the bare minimum. It doesn't include anything but engine alternators for charging.

A watermaker is not an alternative for adequate tankage. There are plenty of places that a watermaker can't be used because of water pollution. We are discussing large catamarans, and yes, in most 45 to 50 foot cruising designs the fluids carried weighs around 2 tonnes.

Unladen displacement also does not include any fuel or water, no dinghy or motor, no sails or rigging except working white sails, no solar panels, no inverter, no watermaker, minimal refrigeration, undersized anchor and no spare, no covers or clears, no radar, no cooking or eating utensils, no linen, etc. No beer! Some may call this stuff "crap", but I will choose to disagree. If you sit down and actually add up the weigh of this stuff, most people will be surprised.

What your house chattels weigh is irrelevant. I'm guessing that most of the weighty necessities found on a cruising catamaran are not found in houses. 30 kg anchors and 80m of 10mm chain just aren't household items, but they are probably "crap" as well.

And by the way, why must you persist with the personal barbs?
"Water and fuel, yes, but maybe if you had a boat that sailed, you could carry less fuel? (#27)

My boat is not what is being discussed, and I'll carry as much fuel as I like and sail as slow as I please; without overloading.
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:28   #33
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Agree. But ultimately it comes down to what each of us define as comfort.
More correctly, what our wives define as comfort.
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:37   #34
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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What your house chattels weigh is irrelevant..
Given that 44C has been living aboard his boat for some years - what is on his boat IS his house chattels.
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:39   #35
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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More correctly, what our wives define as comfort.
QFT. We travel light, we did 4 months in South America last year - backpacking and walking and stuff, carried less than 20 kilos each including our tent etc, and just like on boats the biggest weight penalty is water!!
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Old 12-06-2016, 00:42   #36
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Given that 44C has been living aboard his boat for some years - what is on his boat IS his house chattels.
Maybe you need to re- read.
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:57   #37
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Maybe you need to re- read.
I get what you were trying to say, what I was trying to say , obviously not successfully, is that home and comfort mean different things to different people. No one, well certainly not me is saying that you or anyone else SHOULDN'T carry what you want. What I am saying is that just because you or Chris or anyone else wants to carry lots of stuff, doesn't mean we all do when we cruise.

What Chris was saying I think and I absolutely agree is that you want to carry shed loads then to get performance you need a long boat so that hull beam to hull length ratios are maintained in a reasonable figure.

What I am saying is that plenty of people don't carry 4 tonne, doesn't make them right and you wrong and it doesn't make you right and them wrong.
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Old 12-06-2016, 13:19   #38
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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I'm not the one inferring that its Ok to overload.
No, but you're the one creating his own "facts" about insurance being denied anyone who's boat is even one kilogramme above design displacement.

Meanwhile in the real world, raised waterlines would have to be the most common feature among cruising boats.


So yes, up to a point it must be OK to overload your boat. Almost everyone does it.
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Old 12-06-2016, 15:46   #39
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
No, but you're the one creating his own "facts" about insurance being denied anyone who's boat is even one kilogramme above design displacement.

Meanwhile in the real world, raised waterlines would have to be the most common feature among cruising boats.


So yes, up to a point it must be OK to overload your boat. Almost everyone does it.
No, almost everyone doesn't. Those that do have obviouly chosen the wrong boat. I'm not creating "facts", and it would seem self evident that "almost everyone" that overloads should have chosen a boat with more carrying capacity.

This is exactly my point: pay chose attention to maximum displacement figures. Choosing to exceed a manufacturer's designed maximum displacement will not only reduce performance but more importantly increase the risk of structural breakage, reduces seaworthiness and safety and increase the chances of penalty, voiding manufacturers warranty and jeopardizing insurance coverage should something go wrong.

For some strange reason you have chosen to become argumentative over the insurance issue. Whether or not an insurance claim is approved or rejected is a very complex issue involving a huge number of variables. All I'm saying is that having an overloaded vessel may void insurance.

I do know that in my jurisdiction the police, maritime authorities and coroner look very closely at vessel loading in the event of a serious marine incidents. That's a fact.
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Old 12-06-2016, 18:19   #40
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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I do know that in my jurisdiction the police, maritime authorities and coroner look very closely at vessel loading in the event of a serious marine incidents. That's a fact.
Coroner won't be statutorily involved unless there is a reportable death of person falling within the jurisdiction of the act. See Part 3 of the Coroners Act 2003.
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Old 12-06-2016, 19:05   #41
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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No, almost everyone doesn't. Those that do have obviouly chosen the wrong boat.

Maybe you need to meet some actual cruisers. Ask them if their water line has ever been raised. Pretty much everyone I know has raised theirs. Mono's, cat's, yes, even Lagoons....


I also wonder how many people actually know what displacement they are cruising at? People may get an estimate from a travel lift, but they're not accurate. I think it would be pretty much only racers who really accurately know what their boat weighs.
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Old 12-06-2016, 19:06   #42
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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I do know that in my jurisdiction the police, maritime authorities and coroner look very closely at vessel loading in the event of a serious marine incidents. That's a fact.

Perhaps check the dictionary definition of "fact"?
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Old 12-06-2016, 20:15   #43
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Maybe you need to meet some actual cruisers. Ask them if their water line has ever been raised. Pretty much everyone I know has raised theirs. Mono's, cat's, yes, even Lagoons....


I also wonder how many people actually know what displacement they are cruising at? People may get an estimate from a travel lift, but they're not accurate. I think it would be pretty much only racers who really accurately know what their boat weighs.
Raising a waterline does not automatically mean that a boat is in excess of maximum displacement; it simply means that it is sitting lower in the water than it has previously.

Pretty sure that I've met a few "actual cruisers". Here we go again; more personal barbs and insults. Time to ignore you again.
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Old 12-06-2016, 20:26   #44
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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Coroner won't be statutorily involved unless there is a reportable death of person falling within the jurisdiction of the act. See Part 3 of the Coroners Act 2003.
And wouldn't that be, as I wrote "a serious marine incident"?

I know of at least one local incident that involved all three investigations. Yes, it was a multiple fatality, and displacement of both vessels was calculated.
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Old 12-06-2016, 22:29   #45
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Re: NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

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And wouldn't that be, as I wrote "a serious marine incident"?

I know of at least one local incident that involved all three investigations. Yes, it was a multiple fatality, and displacement of both vessels was calculated.

I have no dog in fight except as a party interested in learning more. If the facts as you state above are true, you should have no issue with backing up your statements with links. After all, such proceedings generally provide a very public result. And such results are always published.
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