Neel 45 Trimaran

[Tri]

Just look at the video posted above and check where the Genoa sheet ends. Far too much inward towards the mast (which already kills trim) and no ability to trim at all but to pull at the sheet (no lead car, no barber-hauler) just a tow point. There were multiple other things beside the sails not standing well that made it obvious that there was not much attention and love payed to the rig. The extremely poor rig is what still stands out in my memory today.

[Spindoctor]

Tri - I also noted the lack of car leads for either Genoa or jibsheet. I had asked owners about this but but never received a response. Just for clarity, your issue regarding the rig being unacceptable was concerning trim issues? Not issues regarding the standing rigging itself?


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[Factor]

Originally Posted by Tri

No that is wrong, Among others I have sailed two Catana 50 in the last 15 years and now own a DF32. Before buying a DF I have looked at a Neel 45 as a trimaran because I wanted more speed (especially in light winds) and even test sailed it in LaRochelle with Eric Bruneel. I liked the simplistic layout - like said - but the rig is just unacceptable. That is why I have a DF now.

I was referring to Mr Polux

[Polux]

Originally Posted by lucdekeyser

When I look at the sail boat industry with my experience in a totally different industry what strikes me is most is 1. a poor attitude towards safety and 2. a low average profit margin. The first in inexcusable but would require a major overhaul of the business culture, not likely to happen soon nor quick. The second puts a superhuman pressure on designers to design in quality while keeping a healthy profit.

Boats are inherently complex projects. To turn these into quality products and make them economically viable given the rather small market size designers can only do three things: simplify, simplify, and simplify. That complicates the work of the designer with an order of magnitude but remains cheaper than foiling the company. But that also puts an almost unacceptable burden on the salesman.

The Neel is conceived by a racer turned salesman to compete with the line of boats he represented before. The gestalt of the Neel does stir the emotions of a segment of that market. While the planform of a trimaran is well established, this boat as a system is way too complex to reach a decent level of quality early enough in the product life cycle given the relatively small market it covers.

I am the last to blame the customer but under these severly constraining atenuating circumstances boat manufacturers can claim, a customer would be wise to choose a design that remains as simple as is barely acceptable.

Or then it should be prepared to pay more money.
Somebody had already pointed out the simplicity of Neel rig, the interior is pretty basic and the overall concept is not complicated too.

But that is not enough to warranty a problem free product. It is very hard to produce an inexpensive product and maintain an acceptable quality with special emphasis on safety and on the structural and functional parts.

Regarding lower prices on the market one of the most interesting experiences is being made by a charter company that disgusted with the quality of the boats they bought for charter started to make their own boat. The specifications are very good, the price incredibly low and I am very curious to see how it turns out the experience....even if i am a bit skeptic about it, but who knows, maybe they are right. They are Swedes and Swedes are known to make quality products. This is the boat:

[Tri]

Spindoctor, I can't recall details of the standing rig but I remember that because of the deckhouse design there was no really viable way to make great improvements overall.

There were other small things that at the time just made me have a question-mark. The anchor chain ran below deck through a very small hole (no lid or direct access to the chain compartment from deck). In case of a pile up you had to sort things through an access in the front cabin below deck. Even with stainless I would not have felt comfortable (but that might just be me). A lid on deck was problematic because of structural stability for the Jib, Genoa or windlass (can't remember which).

Factor, sorry I misunderstood but there is nothing wrong with never having sailed a multi. Every boat is a compromise and everybody has to make a choice what works best for him or herself. There is no better or worse boat just hopefully a boat that you enjoy sailing with.

The only compromise you should not make is poor quality of workmanship or poor warranty service. Your life may depend upon it. That is why I think it is good and helpful for everybody that the owner in youtube broke the silence.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Tri

Factor, sorry I misunderstood but there is nothing wrong with never having sailed a multi. .

Absolutely agree, what is a problem is when someone has never sailed one, but professes intimate knowledge.

[lucdekeyser]

Originally Posted by Polux

Or then it should be prepared to pay more money.
Somebody had already pointed out the simplicity of Neel rig, the interior is pretty basic and the overall concept is not complicated too.

But that is not enough to warranty a problem free product. It is very hard to produce an inexpensive product and maintain an acceptable quality with special emphasis on safety and on the structural and functional parts.

Regarding lower prices on the market one of the most interesting experiences is being made by a charter company that disgusted with the quality of the boats they bought for charter started to make their own boat. The specifications are very good, the price incredibly low and I am very curious to see how it turns out the experience....even if i am a bit skeptic about it, but who knows, maybe they are right. They are Swedes and Swedes are known to make quality products. This is the boat:

Polux, being an architect you understand that hiking the purchase price some percentage cannot possibly cover the exponential cost that complexity brings. But it is only human to underestimate the production of a complex product and repeat the fault over and over again (eg the demise of gunboat).
While the Neel may be less complex than many, as a total system it remains very complex. Blaming faults on stupidity is not enough. Intelligent builders may be too expensive. There is virtue in a design that even a moron could build well enough. This also happens to be the devise of Warren Buffet when shopping for the next company to buy.

The Swedish boat is a case in point. A good effort but despite their focus they do not have the cash to produce the evidence from controlled tests to convince from the outset that this is a good boat. You still have a wait and see approach. The real testing will only start when the first boats roll off the production line. And you know from then on the reporting will be only haphazardly like it is today with this Neel 45. No reliable statistics will ensue. You know that Volvo for example doesn't do that with their cars. Before a new model is released to the market several test vehicles have been abused in controlled testing environments. Swedish mass products may be top quality but even then massive recalls are not unheard of.

In conclusion, the market of sailboats is too small for a customer to buy his way out of increased complexity (unless money is no issue whatsoever). The Neel is still too complex a boat. Barely acceptable to become affordable is probably very bare, indeed.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by lucdekeyser

Polux, being an architect you understand that hiking the purchase price some percentage cannot possibly cover the exponential cost that complexity brings. But it is only human to underestimate the production of a complex product and repeat the fault over and over again (eg the demise of gunboat).
While the Neel may be less complex than many, as a total system it remains very complex. Blaming faults on stupidity is not enough. Intelligent builders may be too expensive. There is virtue in a design that even a moron could build well enough. This also happens to be the devise of Warren Buffet when shopping for the next company to buy.

The Swedish boat is a case in point. A good effort but despite their focus they do not have the cash to produce the evidence from controlled tests to convince from the outset that this is a good boat. You still have a wait and see approach. The real testing will only start when the first boats roll off the production line. And you know from then on the reporting will be only haphazardly like it is today with this Neel 45. No reliable statistics will ensue. You know that Volvo for example doesn't do that with their cars. Before a new model is released to the market several test vehicles have been abused in controlled testing environments. Swedish mass products may be top quality but even then massive recalls are not unheard of.

In conclusion, the market of sailboats is too small for a customer to buy his way out of increased complexity (unless money is no issue whatsoever). The Neel is still too complex a boat. Barely acceptable to become affordable is probably very bare, indeed.

I agree with what you say...but that Swedish boat (made in Croatia) has already been made, crossed the Atlantic and is doing charter on the Caribbean. The next 6 will follow an all bought by the charter company that is building the boats.

The good thing on this case is that you have just to charter the boat to have a good look at it. Since they are making full use of the boats, in Caribbean and on the med on opposed seasons it would not be needed too much time to see if they have problems or not. They would be hard used no doubt.

Regarding the Neel the reason I have some doubts regarding the situation to be as bad on the average produced boat as reported on that video has to do with the fact that Neel have been making boats for 5 or 6 years and they would not stand that long if their product was so bad.

[Valiente]

Pic of the Swede boat made in Croatia doesn't show. At least in my browser.
Any link for more info?
Thanks

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[Polux]

Originally Posted by Valiente

Pic of the Swede boat made in Croatia doesn't show. At least in my browser.
Any link for more info?
Thanks

Enviado desde mi GT-N5110 mediante Tapatalk

I can see the picture

Go to my blog and put on the search engine More 55. I made a post about it with lots of information. You can also search for More 55 but I don't believe you will get so much information easily.

[barnakiel]

I have been on the ARC one (the 'Sport' version) as well as on one we met in Martinique winter 2012/2013.

The above two units did not seem to suffer from any issues.

I have heard a new bigger 60 or something is available now?

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I have been on the ARC one (the 'Sport' version) as well as on one we met in Martinique winter 2012/2013.

The above two units did not seem to suffer from any issues.

I have heard a new bigger 60 or something is available now?

b.

And that Nell 45 that made the ARC well ahead of all cats, including some bigger performance cats, was sailed near the limit all that time. Impressive performance and also impressive not having any breakage.

Yes they have a Neel 65 that i find monstrous

[Valiente]

Originally Posted by Polux

I can see the picture

Go to my blog and put on the search engine More 55. I made a post about it with lots of information. You can also search for More 55 but I don't believe you will get so much information easily.

Pixel does show now. Thanks!

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[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Polux

And that Nell 45 that made the ARC well ahead of all cats, including some bigger performance cats, was sailed near the limit all that time. Impressive performance and also impressive not having any breakage.

Yes they have a Neel 65 that i find monstrous

Yes. It was not a plain vanilla one, it was what they call a Sport Line - lighter hull (likely somewhat different draft), better sails, and, sure, better sailors. The boat sailed light, there was no cruising gear onboard. There was a margin but not beyond what you expect from a light clean boat driven by a racing skipper. God knows who sailed in more comfort. I do not like what I see on Neel videos.

I have seen the boat BEFORE the crossing, so I cannot tell if she suffered any issues or not. She looked all right on the start line.

b.

[Spindoctor]

Looks like she also has a daggerboard in the main hull


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