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Old 20-02-2014, 07:07   #31
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

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Originally Posted by aclmck View Post
Hi Scarlet,

I'm sure that all of the boats you looked at are pretty,but how many are going to suit your actual purpose?

you have a few posts on cf but you have't really said what you want to do with a boat (my apologies if i missed it) now that you have gone over the show boats you should be able to get to a size and then narrow down the field, it is daunting but challenging to pick "your perfect boat" good luck hope it all goes well.
My husband and I are planning on being full time liveaboard/cruisers... So.. we are trying to find a good balance between performance/safety/live-ability/price. But, in all honesty... we KNOW there is no such thing as the perfect boat.

You are right about the price of the boats we are looking at. We won't buy new... so, we are hoping to get one of these boats within our price range in a few years.. and I really think the 40'-45' range is about perfecct (but I sure liked that leopard 48!!)
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Old 20-02-2014, 07:12   #32
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

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Originally Posted by Teknav View Post
Hiya Scarlet! While in Annapolis, visit the Beneteau Oceanis line. The stern has a platform that can be extended flat/raised/lowered. This makes it very easy to load provisions from a dinghie, and to get in/out. If I did not know any better, I'd say this line of mono-hull boats were specifically designed for the handicapped. In addition, this platform makes it easier on you when you're ready to get into/out of the water when you're ready for a swim. (Disclaimer: Not associated with Beneteau Oceanis in any capacity.)

Mauritz
Engineering simplicity yet elegant.
Teknav!!! I can't believe you suggested that boat!! we actually REALLY liked the boat.. and I kept commenting over and over about how much I LOVED that feature!! it was BRILLIANT!!! I didn't understand, at firtst, that it was a "flip up" back.. so I asked the sales person how we would keep our passengers and dogs safe with the back being so open.. that's when he showed us the "flip up"!! Ingenious!!! We made note to charter one of those with Sunsail. (not sure if they offer it yet.. but they do carry the Oceanis line)...
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Old 20-02-2014, 07:18   #33
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

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Pallaran, no disagreement that for many people, amenities and space drive the sales of catamarans as much as sailing performance and comfort when underway. That being said, there is something to be said about the suggestion that Scarlet's views on various boats not only may, but probably will change once she has had some sailing experience. Things like adequate bridgedeck clearance and the lack of a blunt leading edge to the bridgedeck, reasonable windage and a reasonably low Cg, well organized running rigging, a well designed anchoring arrangement, good protection for the helm from sun and rain, a wet locker near the companionway, a large nav station with seating (again, preferably near the companionway), decent ventilation, rounded corners to interior joinerwork, fiddles on counters/tables (yes, things do move around when underway even in a cat), at least one top-load refrigeration unit (for the same reason), good and safe access to the diesels even when underway, etc, all become valuable 'amenities' and much more 'attractive' once you have gained sailing experience.

Brad
Brad... I want you to know, I just printed out your list above. WONDERFUL! That's why I love this forum... at least 1/2 of those things I wouldn't have even thought to look for.... Now I get a chance to really think about them... and research where I need to learn.. thanks for the "free education"..
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Old 20-02-2014, 10:38   #34
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Scarlet,
(I started this reply yesterday, but got sidetracked....hopefully you find some of this helpful...)

I'm glad you enjoyed the boat show...they can be fun!!

I hope you don't mind some constructive (but unsolicited) comments....
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
We went to our first Miami Boat Show last week..
(checking out this years models which will be the ones we will buy 5-7 years down the line...)
(My husband and I are planning on being full time liveaboard/cruisers... So.. we are trying to find a good balance between performance/safety/live-ability/price. But, in all honesty... we KNOW there is no such thing as the perfect boat.)
After the show, I've come to many conclusions:
--- Please do yourselves the favor of not coming to conclusions yet!!
I realize this is probably just a turn-of-phrase, but I also wanted to assure you that having an open mind and NOT making snap judgments/conclusions after one boat show, will give you a much better chance of choosing the boat that is right for you and your application...







And, this just might be the first conclusion to come to, too soon...
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Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
1. We need a LOT more money..
Please understand that while we ALL wish we had more money, the facts are that NOBODY needs every feature that is touted as necessary in a boat, nor every accessory / gizmo / app / etc. that everyone at a boat show wants to sell ya'!!!
It can be easy to say, but hard for some to actually believe....especially since every magazine and many internet sites also tout the latest and greatest...and the implication is that if you ignore all this "expert" advice, you are surely doomed to die a slow painful death at sea!!

The truth is, you'll spend what you have / what you can afford.....so do NOT let all the fancy features and nifty systems pull you down the dreaded path of thinking you need "a LOT more money"!!


My first cruise was as a kid with my parents, in the mid 1960's....and I've sailed and cruised (on/off) ever since, including multiple Atlantic crossings, etc., and I've made my living (between sailing/cruising) in electronics the past 30 years...
So, about 10 years ago, I bought and equipped my current boat according to my desires and application of long-range ocean cruising (see bottom of posting for link to pictures, including some of my most recent Atlantic crossings), but understand that all of this isn't a necessity!!!

My parents started cruising (part-time at first) in the 1940's....and by the time they sold their last boat in the mid 1990's, they had cruised/voyaged from the Great Lakes, throughout Florida and explored every nook 'n cranny in the Bahamas and the entire Caribbean (except for Cuba and Jamaica), sailed across the Atlantic multiple times, cruised England and Scotland, the Orkneys and Heberdies, as well as France, Spain and Portugal....and a few seasons cruising the Med (prior to the end of the Cold War), including the of-the-beaten path locales, such as Yugoslavia, Turkey, N. Africa, etc. as well as the common locales like Greek islands, Spain, France, Italy, etc...
I can remember (when a teenager) being the ONLY Americans cruising the coasts of Turkey....where I experienced some of the most wonderful people in the world....
{actually of all the places I've cruised over my life, my top cultures are Bahamas, Portugal (particularly the Azores), Spain (particularly the "coasta del sol" and the Canaries), Turkey, and ???? (the next 5 are all tied)...but I digress!!!}

I could ramble on, but my point is this:
In all their voyaging/cruising, in all those years/miles, they never had GPS, Chartplotter, nor computer.....no internet, no sat phone, etc....
NONE of that was even available / invented yet....
No watermaker, etc....we just took on good water where we could and we had NO issues...
(yeah, if you had the space/room for the 6' radome, and the electrical power to run it, if you wanted a sat phone, you could've spent > $10,000, in 1970's dollars, on an INMARSAT A terminal....and in their last decade or so, GPS satellites were launched and some GPS receivers were becoming affordable....but other than that, NONE of that was available...)

And, guess what we all survived just fine!!!

(Even some of the inexpensive stuff that some will tell 'ya is a necessity, usually aren't....as an example, and although I have 'em on-board now, I've sailed the Bahamas for decades without "Explorer's Charts", etc.)

The bottom line here:
If you really get down to it, what you need is this:
a) a boat and crew that keeps the water on the outside and mast/rigging pointing up...
b) a hi-quality, and deviated, steering compass...
c) a handful of some paper charts, and a wristwatch...
d) a decent supply of fresh water and/or a way to catch rain water...
e) enough money and/or an income, to "live" on

If you have the money / income for the above, you don't need much more....
Almost everything else is a "want" not a "need"....

If you look at my current boat and see where I've cruised, you may think that I'm the "pot calling the kettle black", but please understand that I'm NOT...
I'm just trying to impress on you that a truly wonderful, rewarding, and safe life can be had out cruising/voyaging WITHOUT having a lot of money, nor buying everything that "everyone" says is necessary....
Some of the stuff is nice to have, but isn't necessary...
The more you sail/cruise, and speak to those that did this in the days before GPS, etc. the more you'll grasp this...






I'm a monohull sailor, and I openly disclose here that I think most cats are ugly....but that doesn't mean I can't be objective..
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
3. Went on a few monohulls.. they are BEAUTIFUL.. but absolutely NOT for us. Too much "motion in the ocean"!!
Scarlet PLEASE forgive my bluntness and please do NOT take this the wrong way, but...
But, if the monohulls you went on (not sure which ones) had (in your experience) too much "motion in the ocean" right there at the boat show, at the dock...it leaves me wondering if sailing is actually something that you both would enjoy??
Maybe I'm reading too much into your brief statement above (and if so, my apologies and please ignore the following), but boats do move around a lot...even at anchor in a cove somewhere, you'll get some motion....and when at sea the ocean is not flat (at least not very often!).
I realize we all have our own personal preferences and we all experience things differently, and I know that monos and cats DO have different "motions", so I'm NOT being critical here, rather I'm just trying to impress on you the facts that all boats have motion, and until you get out and sail a few boats in your desired range (40' - 50'), both mono and cat, AND see how they lay at anchor, etc. you will not be able to make any hard and fast decisions on which boats have the motion you desire and which don't make the cut...
(also be aware that SOME newer designs tend to sail around at anchor as well...but that's a whole 'nother discussion, for another time...)







While I wish you well in Annapolis...
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
Anyway... you can't imagine how excited we now are about this adventure... And, we can't wait to go to Anapolis in October...
In my opinion, you MIGHT be better served by not going to the boat show, or even spending some of the money budgeted for the October Boat Show on SAILING....
Get out on the water this summer, anywhere and anyway you can....take day sail trips, sign up for sailing lessons, befriend some single-hander at a local marina, etc....
I don't know where you are, what sailing there is nearby, nor what your current experiences are...but (in MY opinion) after the Miami show, spending more time and money going to Annapolis and not getting out sailing would be a waste!!!




Scarlet, sorry if I sound a bit "opinionated" (but I guess after 45 years on the water, sailing, and cruising on/off....ya' just get a bit "opinionated"

I understand that EVERYONE is different and EVERYONE has different desires/opinions, etc....
I just hope you find some of mine helpful.

Fair winds.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

More boat photos here...
http://www.c470.jerodisys.com/470pix/foto_bot.htm
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Old 20-02-2014, 11:56   #35
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Scarlet, if John sounded a bit harsh, I don't believe that was his intention. Indeed, I think his suggestion about spending more of your hard-earned dollars sailing than boat-hunting at this point is very sage advice indeed . My suggestions about some features of cat design/construction that may mean more to you after you have some real on-the-water experience was not intended to be put onto a 'wish-list'; rather, they were things that became important to me because of my experience and which might become important to you.

I am also fully in agreement with John that unless you have virtually unlimited resources, if your goal is to cruise and liveaboard full-time, you should not let your paradigm for a cruising boat become the goal. There will always be something that is newer and better in both boat design and equipment but, as John points out, are they really 'needs', or just 'wants'.

I know a couple who had similar dreams to your own. They had zero experience sailing and yet decided, some would say unwisely, to sell everything off, buy a boat they could afford, get some experience over the course of one year and then depart to a new life as full-time liveaboards/cruisers. They bought a PDQ 32 - a boat which you and your husband would no doubt suggest was way too small for your needs. They kept electronics/equipment to a minimum and thereby kept their lives simple and saved money (of course it also kept them from adding too much weight to a boat that was not designed to carry it).

I recall meeting them in an anchorage the summer before they departed. My wife and I had them over to our boat for dinner and drinks and I must say, we wondered how they would make out in the long run. I am pleased to say that they are still at it and from what I can see, very much enjoying their new life.

I suspect that they would still be in Canada if they had waited for the budget to buy a bigger boat with better equipment. Certainly the bigger and more expensive boat would have also cost more to insure, dock and maintain, adding even more to the need to build-up the cruising kitty before departure. Would they have had more adventures, or a better time if they had waited until they could afford their paradigm of a boat? I seriously doubt it.

So please check out their site: Zero to Cruising!

If nothing else, Rebecca and Mike's experience shows that what you and your husband dream of is indeed possible: going from zero (experience) to (full-time) cruising in a short period of time. However, I suggest it also shows the benefits to toning down your expectations. Of separating what you want in a boat, from what you really need.

Cheers!

Brad
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Old 20-02-2014, 12:14   #36
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

My wife started out going to the boat shows and developed a much different list if essentials than she has now. A few actual sailing trips quickly changed her mind. What looks pretty tied to a boat show dock is not always essential for cruising.
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Old 20-02-2014, 12:39   #37
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Oops! Just checked out Mike and Rebecca's site for the first time in a couple of years and it appears that they have purchased a bigger cat and are now running charters out of the BVI's! Well anyway, at least they started out with a PDQ 32 (and there is still a picture of it on the upper right corner of their site).

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Old 20-02-2014, 14:04   #38
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

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DotDun,
I don't really want to get in an argument about this boat unless you insist. You like it, great. I think it looks stupid and ugly - that's my opinion. The only reason I commented on your original post was your dig towards Scarlet about "having to sail for awhile to appreciate it". That comment I don't agree with.

I once agreed with you. At first the Neel 45 looked like the ugliest boat to me too. Like a flying saucer on the water instead of a boat. But the more I looked at it, the more it grew on me.

There is a method to the strangeness of the layout. For example, the interior and cabins have the best panoramic view I've seen on any vessel. One thing I disliked at first is the lack of any woodwork or shelving at all, but this might be a weight saving factor since the boat only weighs 18K pounds, which is incredibly light for a boat it's size. The storage spaces are incredibly enormous as well so it may not need so much shelving anyway. The nav station inside has a great view forward and the boat can be piloted from there. The only real drawbacks I see is the expense of keeping such a wide boat in a marina, and poor visibility from the helm.

It's a bit out of my current budget range but in a few years a used one might work for me. We'll see...
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Old 20-02-2014, 14:08   #39
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Scarlet,
Yep, Brad has it right...
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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Scarlet, if John sounded a bit harsh, I don't believe that was his intention. Indeed, I think his suggestion about spending more of your hard-earned dollars sailing than boat-hunting at this point is very sage advice indeed.
No harshness intended!
Now, if I could just learn to be more concise.......

Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 20-02-2014, 14:16   #40
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Looking at shiny new boats at boat shows plugged into shore power, nice and snug in the boat show marina is definitely fun. It gives you a good idea of various layouts and features, size, etc. However, it gives you no idea about functionality of systems or design when sailing - to state the obvious. What may look nice or seem like a nice idea at the boat show could out to absolutely stupid in function when sailing.....
Case in point. That new Leopard 48 that you like with the forward enclosed living area (it's not really a forward cockpit) is great when anchored or in the marina but unfortunately means that cat will sail very slowly to windward - it's a massive air dam. This is not just my opinion, I met a professional moorings skippered charter captain 10 months ago with 15 years charter captain. He and his wife (the crew/hostess) had just moved aboard the new 48 (replacing the older 46). He said to windward the boat just stops. You have to motor sail if you want to get to your windward destination in a timely fashion.
So it depends on what you're using the boat for. A little weekend sailing along the coast or in bays, lots of anchoring and entertaining, then yes, the forward living area is great. If you like sailing then it's a ridiculous design feature for a sail boat.
Oh, and before the monohull sailors pipe in and say no production cat sails well to windward..... My lagoon 440 sails close hauled 30 degrees apparent doing 8 knots in 18 true (as long as the seas are not too big).
Thank you for the Boat Show synopsis.
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Old 20-02-2014, 15:15   #41
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Hi John.. and others..

I wasn't at all offended.. .and I didn't think you were harsh. but, I did want to point out that you don't know me.. and I mean that with all the respect in the world. I'm motivated, and have goals, and a plan... I'm not the type to just buy a boat, with no experience.. and take off... or throw all my resources into the boat, and not make a plan to get the proper sailing experience. I understand the value of "living beneath our means", and distinquishing between "wants and needs". And I try really hard not to close my mind to options before I've spent enough time and experience on them. I'm a very contemplative person, and I've really just begun here... And, I'm not sure what others think of me here.. but, I feel like I've asked some good questions... I know I've learned TONS here already. And I'm very serious about doing this. I'm not just a "dreamer"... I'm sure my initial post on this thread made me sound a bit naive, and I think that's exactly how I should sound at this point.. I AM naive.. again.. I'm just a beginner here, and that's why I post.. to learn all the wonderful things you experienced sailers have to teach.. And, frankly? I was just incredibly excited about the boats we saw, and wanted to share.

As for getting to know me.. my husband and I have about 6 years until retirement. He can retire with the military this year, but we are choosing to stay in until his full medical coverage kicks in. So, we have 6 years to get all the experience and knowledge we can. And, we do have a basic outline of what our plans are.

One of the reasons we went to the boat show, was we had never been on a Cat.. (although both of us have been on Monohulls before) We wanted to experience what they were like.. and really develop a good feel for the different models, and manufacturers. We spent a ton of time talking to the dealers... which was educational.

We also went to the boat show for a TON of other reasons. Did you know that they offer lots of free classes, lectures, etc? The ASA had this really basic sailing simulator where you can take a free sailing lesson... there were also "boat maintainance seminars". We also signed up for a 3 hour intro to catamaran sailing excursion. My husband learned about navigational tools... and depth finders... and he also talked with a guy about different communication options.. sat. phones.. etc.

We talked to a sailing school we've been looking at, and decided to take their offering in September. It's with Blue Water Sailing, and we will get our 101/102/104/114 cetrifications all in one week in a liveaboard environment... and, have some other sailing things booked for this summer... and we've already begun working through our course books..

The best part of going to the show, though... was the people we met and talked to.. We made some friends, and connections. Even met a few people from the board here.. these are people who will become our circle of sailing friends, and provide us a support system, and resources as we move forward.

Anyway... I do think we will continue to go to boat shows... and spend a small portion of our resources doing so.. they are just so educational.. and frankly? they are just really FUN! we had a blast... and I really do appreciate your feedback. You had tons of really good points to make, and I take what you said very seriously...

Thanks, as always.. for your input..
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Old 20-02-2014, 15:44   #42
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

ooops... NOW who has become a bit long winded! sorry.. didn't know I was posting so much. sorry for the long read..
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Old 20-02-2014, 16:05   #43
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Scarlet,

We have some Canadian friends who fell "in love" with a Catamaran at Miami, and bought it. Later, they told us they had no idea that a mono in the size range (12-14 meters) could offer the sailing capabilities and accommodations ours does. At the time, it sounded as if they would have built on their monohull background instead of having to learn catamaran sailing skills.

If your minds are made up, so be it; otherwise, have a look at some higher qualities amongst the monohulls, too. If you are going to buy a previously owned boat in any event, it could pay you handsomely to do so.

Sorry about your good man's knee. I have had knee implants and revision surgery, and I sure hope they put his back together well.

Good luck with it, and good on you for enjoying the process.
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Old 20-02-2014, 16:09   #44
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

Scarlet,
Sharing your excitement is good...no worries there!!

And, in general, I think you guys are off to a great start!!
Kudos to you and your husband!!


And here, you're already ahead of many other novices!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
I'm motivated, and have goals, and a plan... I'm not the type to just buy a boat, with no experience.. and take off... or throw all my resources into the boat, and not make a plan to get the proper sailing experience. I understand the value of "living beneath our means", and distinquishing between "wants and needs".

And I try really hard not to close my mind to options before I've spent enough time and experience on them.
This sounds good!!
One point of clarification on my comments, though...in NO way was I trying to imply that anyone should "live below their means"...sorry if that's how it came off...

Rather, just wanted to point out that if someone "buys into" all the hype of the salesmen, dealers, and vendors at boat shows, in the magazines (even the "editorial" polices are "consumer driven"), and on-line....you'd need a fully loaded support vessel following you around, and pretty soon your retirement would more like a US Navy carrier group than a fun retirement....
Okay, that's a bad joke...

But, I think you get my drift...
No need to live below your means, but no need to "buy into" all the magazine, boat show, and internet hype!!




Please forgive me here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
And I try really hard not to close my mind to options before I've spent enough time and experience on them.
My advice is to use this one sentence as a guide...and do NOT rule out a monohull!!!

If for no other reason that affordability for the size/space/performance....
Yes, I am biased....but I'm using your own words here...




And, you are correct....I don't know ya'...but you guys sound cool...
(although you didn't mention where you currently live, nor how much sailing experience you have, so nobody could get too specific here...which is one reason why there were a lot of generalities posted..)
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet View Post
We also went to the boat show for a TON of other reasons. Did you know that they offer lots of free classes, lectures, etc? The ASA had this really basic sailing simulator where you can take a free sailing lesson... there were also "boat maintainance seminars". We also signed up for a 3 hour intro to catamaran sailing excursion. My husband learned about navigational tools... and depth finders... and he also talked with a guy about different communication options.. sat. phones.. etc.

We talked to a sailing school we've been looking at, and decided to take their offering in September. It's with Blue Water Sailing, and we will get our 101/102/104/114 cetrifications all in one week in a liveaboard environment... and, have some other sailing things booked for this summer... and we've already begun working through our course books..
So, with that in mind, my heartfelt advice is similar to before:
Spend more time/money/effort learning (seminars and classes, including some sailing school classes if you're novice sailors), and sailing, on various boats in various locales/conditions, and less time talking to the dealers and vendors, at the boat shows...
With the new info you posted, we can see that you ARE going to be learning and sailing before October...
So, if you do choose to head to Annapolis Sailboat Show in Oct, you'll be much better informed...



BTW, no worries here about being long winded!!!
(you should read some of my technical/electronics/radio posts!!!)



Fair winds!

John
s/v Annie Laurie
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Old 20-02-2014, 16:27   #45
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Re: My "post mortem" from the Miami Boat Show

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My lagoon 440 sails close hauled 30 degrees apparent doing 8 knots in 18 true (as long as the seas are not too big).
That's really, really, good. I can't sail under 35 degrees effectively.
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