My Multihull sail brothers please stop being so Defensive

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

^^^^^

Sigh..... Neville cat, I think that your quest is hopeless. Maybe divert to some other holy grail?

Jim

Noooooo, dont't give up , this thread may still have legs.

Is it too early for another capsize picture??

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tp12

Perhaps?! Crikey.....

Getting sanctimonious and telling people to STFU is supposed to be helpful? Mate, you're doing it wrong.

It's really not going to go away. You're right though, I've found some very knowledgeable and experienced multi sailors who won't come back to this forum because of that bias and the bollocks that goes on with it.

Treat the root cause and the problem just goes away. Telling people not to react to that isn't going to work. It might for a short time but then people are going to get sick of it, and the hypocrisy, and say something.

You may be wrong there... letting it go is a proven technique. In any case, the first negative posts here in this thread did come from cat sailors, blacklisting each other even as they mistake the other for monohullers. It’s drama like that which is funny; mistaken identity,used by comedians all the time, but for some, the knives are onthe table and stay there.

As for useful responses, there have been several, mine even with solid url for expert experience case study and recommendations. All the responses about how horrible monohullers are, +1, 100% agree etc. add nothing to the thread, while useful info, like lifting boards and rudders is ignored when the writer is thought to be a monohuller, or my post because Jedi monohull. 44Cruiser, even though he loves to attack me as well, at least grabs that info and works with it.

Now for forum history. There was a time this forum was small and all posts from blue water cruisers, helpful and all. Then times changed and trolls joined who amused themselves by posting wrong info deliberately or by attacking those who really know everything... like naval architects, mechanics, even life long cruisers like me. Most left. Some were even kicked when they cracked and got angry. Most never came back, fools like me do now and then, but have changed. We now accept that trolls who tell people to go get themselves killed at sea are just as wanted as us who tried to help everybody asking. Accept that we’ll be attacked with ridiculous claims like never having sailed etc. (again in this thread) and just comment in likewise manner. Because we’ve given up many years ago. But that doesn’t mean that we post nonsense or try to get others, who ask for help, into trouble at sea. Even though I slap 44Cruiser here and there, there will always be some truly useful info. Take it and use it

[tp12]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

.... Although Jedi is very much in the running.

I blocked Jedi ages ago. Forum life improved.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tp12

I blocked Jedi ages ago. Forum life improved.

Your loss. You just missed my good willing, deeply emotional reply to your comment as well as the Henk de Velde story

See, another totally useless comment from tp; noon topic content whatsoever, just here to attack and I bet he still reads my posts

[44'cruisingcat]

The real problem is that the written word often comes across differently from how it's intended.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Well done Mr C , you have just earn't yourself #2 position on my ignore list.

Congratulations 44C - that is indeed a worthy achievment

[Factor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m sorry, it’s hard to keep up with who all is being slugged where; you guys are on to slugging the next one in the blink of an eye
but, he did have a cat, right?

If you mean Mr Seaslug, then no - no known boat that we can tell.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Factor

If you mean Mr Seaslug, then no - no known boat that we can tell.

Well, I can tell: a 10m catamaran. Here, from 2015: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...le-153728.html

[CatNewBee]

As a cat ownwer and now sailor for two seasons in the Med and meanwhile over 5000nm keel water behind I must confess I feel still like a newbee that needs a lot to learn about proper storm tactics and handling.

We had all kinds of weather, strong winds from all directions, cross seas, waves of 2..3m height microbursts of up to 90kn for a few seconds (fortunately having no canvas out at this time) , and also a few quite scary moments ather a long tiring passage in heavy weather with some trouble coming up on the instruments and autopilot during the night, requiring some manual stearing during the worst part, and finally going behind a cape in the morning where the waves calm down a little bit and the wind dropped below 25kn to finally be able to get down the reefed main (half way) , then suddenly got hit by a gust of over 50kn, that ripped out two cars on the remaining main and a fight on the roof with the elements to secure the out of control loose sail canvas to the boom with some ropes. Heaving to with 30% genoa was the next best doable option that brought us some rest and stability afterwards to recover until the conditions improved, to finally motor to a safe anchorage and take a nap.

You need always a plan B, and must be able to take some calculated risks, especially when things start to go really nasty.

Experience and knowledge and some improvisation talent are key on any vessel I guess.

Anyway, I was happy, the cat is such a stable plattform and has plenty of room to move and work on the roof safely with the harness attached to the lines, a heeling mono with a wild mainsail slamming around would have probably added up to the thrill including maybe some showers, risking injuries or a even MOB.

Btw, I was thinking Chotu is looking to buy a cheap 40ish Lagoon cat in the 200k price range according to his posts. What cat does he sail currently?

[Factor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Well, I can tell: a 10m catamaran. Here, from 2015: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...le-153728.html

Imagination - Figment

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

As a cat ownwer and now sailor for two seasons in the Med and meanwhile over 5000nm keel water behind I must confess I feel still like a newbee that needs a lot to learn about proper storm tactics and handling.

We had all kinds of weather, strong winds from all directions, cross seas, waves of 2..3m height microbursts of up to 90kn for a few seconds (fortunately having no canvas out at this time) , and also a few quite scary moments ather a long tiring passage in heavy weather with some trouble coming up on the instruments and autopilot during the night, requiring some manual stearing during the worst part, and finally going behind a cape in the morning where the waves calm down a little bit and the wind dropped below 25kn to finally be able to get down the reefed main (half way) , then suddenly got hit by a gust of over 50kn, that ripped out two cars on the remaining main and a fight on the roof with the elements to secure the out of control loose sail canvas to the boom with some ropes. Heaving to with 30% genoa was the next best doable option that brought us some rest and stability afterwards to recover until the conditions improved, to finally motor to a safe anchorage and take a nap.

You need always a plan B, and must be able to take some calculated risks, especially when things start to go really nasty.

Experience and knowledge and some improvisation talent are key on any vessel I guess.

Anyway, I was happy, the cat is such a stable plattform and has plenty of room to move and work on the roof safely with the harness attached to the lines, a heeling mono with a wild mainsail slamming around would have probably added up to the thrill including maybe some showers, risking injuries or a even MOB.

Btw, I was thinking Chotu is looking to buy a cheap 40ish Lagoon cat in the 200k price range according to his posts. What cat does he sail currently?

I have a 50' performance cruising cat of the kind you can definitely capsize fron wind if you screw up. It's 7tons now. Max of 8-9 tons when more interior is complete. I also have a 50 Gulfstar Sailmaster. Need to get rid of one of them so I'm still struggling a bit with that choice given there is a lot of work needed on the cat. That's my 2nd Catamaran and 4th monohull.

Definitely not interested in lagoons. I'd just keep the monohull if that was the case, as I am after the aspects of a very light performance sailing cat. The stable platform of a lagoon doesn't appeal to me much more than the mono I have which is extremely stable also at 40,000lbs. It has a nice motion and doesn't need to heel much at all to sail her. It really changed my mind as to what a monohull can be actually. Feels bigger than my 50' cat due to the layout and the way the space is used. Hard to imagine, I know, but true.

Still, the cat is better. I want the better daily range under sail. To me, that's no joke as I see days spent traveling as days I've lost in my life. I'd rather get there sooner, as I personally enjoy the destination even more so than the sail getting there. Although an exciting fast sail does change that perspective. The cat is preferred. Just some effort and money which is the only thing making it less attractive. It's a lot to put into a boat given the mono is adequate in all other areas except speed.


This is why I don't have a dog in this fight. I am currently appreciating the positive aspects of both cats and monos. (Unqualified to have any input on trimarans).

What I've learned over my 30 years on these things is half the things we debate on here come down to less of a category of boat or a brand and more to a very specific, individual boat in terms of size, build quality and livability.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Good Lord, I was already a bit disappointed with just a sideways snarky but funny remark instead of a full battle mode reply but look here there’s the real stuff like I knew you could produce

I think I can actually find some to agree with here, like the harsh truth in the last paragraph that I included in my quote above. That must be it, idiots must buy a monohull because a multi is too complex for them

But that first part, not correct at all mate first is that my comments, even though sometimes camouflaged with some tongue in cheek parts, always have expert knowledge at the base. Remember, I reached expert level even before I started cruising Jedi 17 years ago

I must admit that I never owned a multihull, but my rigging is like one and don’t forget that the Sundeers have the catamaran spirit inside them (check Steve Dashew history to learn how so).

Then we getto my second disagreement: I have sailed plenty cats, been aboard many more and some of our best friends own cats or tris. Here’s a link to one friend, Henk de Velde, who is actually a famous expert multihull sailor about flipping them and about recommending no-flip devices just like I always do. This clearly shows that such comments from me are in line with consensus among other experts and better to be taken seriously, before you find yourself flipped over. Which, down under, would be right side up but I won’t go there again because I got almost kicked last time I tried to explain that
Anyway, here’s the link: https://www.henkdevelde.com/go/index...izing-english/

I sat under a coco tree for hours talking to Henk many years ago and also spent time with him on his boat Juniper, seriously great guy, very knowledgeable with crazy amount of experience, it was humbling talking to him.

I remember him being strapped to the deck of his Wharram Oro while riding out Hurricane Oscar in the Indian ocean, wife and baby downstairs......that guys been there done that!

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I have a 50' performance cruising cat of the kind you can definitely capsize fron wind if you screw up. It's 7tons now. Max of 8-9 tons when more interior is complete. I also have a 50 Gulfstar Sailmaster. Need to get rid of one of them so I'm still struggling a bit with that choice given there is a lot of work needed on the cat. That's my 2nd Catamaran and 4th monohull.

Definitely not interested in lagoons. I'd just keep the monohull if that was the case, as I am after the aspects of a very light performance sailing cat. The stable platform of a lagoon doesn't appeal to me much more than the mono I have which is extremely stable also at 40,000lbs. It has a nice motion and doesn't need to heel much at all to sail her. It really changed my mind as to what a monohull can be actually. Feels bigger than my 50' cat due to the layout and the way the space is used. Hard to imagine, I know, but true.

Still, the cat is better. I want the better daily range under sail. To me, that's no joke as I see days spent traveling as days I've lost in my life. I'd rather get there sooner, as I personally enjoy the destination even more so than the sail getting there. Although an exciting fast sail does change that perspective. The cat is preferred. Just some effort and money which is the only thing making it less attractive. It's a lot to put into a boat given the mono is adequate in all other areas except speed.


This is why I don't have a dog in this fight. I am currently appreciating the positive aspects of both cats and monos. (Unqualified to have any input on trimarans).

What I've learned over my 30 years on these things is half the things we debate on here come down to less of a category of boat or a brand and more to a very specific, individual boat in terms of size, build quality and livability.

Very well said.

Your comments regarding "it often comes down to individual boats" I agree is regularly forgotten, just goes straight to cats vs monos forgetting theres so many variations in between. My 47 mono is a completely different beast while passage making than my 32 foot mono was, non comparable, it's also non comparable to the 31ft Wharram I once had.

Your comment "it's the journey not the destination " rings true for me as well BUT I want to be as comfortable as I can during the journey.

[rbrentp]

It's probably the generalizations that get us down this trail. My old Iroquois came with a auto inflating mast donut to keep the boat from inverting, They obviously had issues. It was also very fast and draft 18 inches with Daggers up. A trade off. According to the Prout site, in 40ish years no Snowgoose has ever capsized. It is heavy and slower. The generalizations are what causes this sort of thread. The original post pointed out a number of reports on a style of cat. What we are missing here is the %. Much to the point of the analogy to cars. If you have 100,000,000 of them moving about someone will manage to land one in the top of a tree.

[Paul Howard]

One can wreck, capsize, incapacitate any boat. Catamarans, trimarans or monohulls.
I am now sailing my second catamaran, with 20 years and 70,000miles of catamaran sailing from north of the Arctic Circle to south around Cape Horn.
It is largely a matter of seamanship, knowing your boat and being cautious and sailing in the correct seasons.