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Old 06-05-2015, 22:21   #61
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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Originally Posted by jaybird1111 View Post
Is there such a thing as a monohull that doesn't heel or roll?
No! Well I suppose it it is permanently aground...
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Old 06-05-2015, 22:28   #62
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

My DF 1000 has never slammed, and I've been in some pretty big stuff.

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Old 06-05-2015, 22:37   #63
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
Sorry but factual evidence does not support that opinion.

Did you read my post?

Upwind downwind and across the wind and seas in up to 35 knots of wind typically 25 plus rounding St Martin/Sint Maarten and racing in the Caribbean seas in the 35th Heineken Regatta the L420 DID NOT SLAM ONCE.

The Gull Wing Bridge deck DOES eliminate slamming and you dont get more 'cruisie' than a Lagoon. The older Lagoons the L380 L42 L47 and even the L570 do slam.

In fact the L570, well it does not slam it has a troll who lives underneath the bridge deck with a big big sledge hammer.....

I don't I hope need to add I have no axe to grind here as I sail a monohull at the moment.

I am just giving real time feed back on (the lack of) slamming on a L420 and yes I was both surprised and amazed that it did not slam at all.
Sounds like an excellent boat and clearly not prone to bad behavior in typical offshore conditions. Ever had it out in anything rough? it will eventually slam like a mono will eventually be knocked down it's just how much it takes and if it is a problem, i.e. will it break up or become uncontrollable.
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:01   #64
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
Really!!! we were racing and doing 8+knots VMG towards a windward mark.....
No you weren't. It's impossible for a 420 to make 8 kts VMG upwind.

I've been in two Heineken Regattas and two other multihull only regattas in St. Maarten and I didn't slam either. For sure the 420 and my boat is not immune to slamming just because it didn't happen on those occasions. You don't have to believe it, you just need to sail a 420 longer.

Dave
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Old 07-05-2015, 07:34   #65
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

Dave I'm assuming he means 8K toward a windward mark, not directly upwind. Or the VMG is on the last tack 8K VMG to windward, against current! Is the boat for sale!!!?
In any case, I think everyone's idea of what is normal, acceptable sailing noises and performance is different, and the OP really needs to just try a few different cats to see if any live up to his expectations. One point is that depending where you are on board, the sounds can be hugely different. A loud bang heard in the cabin or galley might not even be noticed at the helm. Definitely not to the same extent. Another factor in wave noise as compared to a mono is cats have large flat sided hulls. Go bang one with your hand, it's like a drum. Because they don't heel they stay close to vertical and waves hotting at the right angle can make for some good percussion. On the other hand, leaners are much more curved, usually stiffer and there is usually no large, flat, vertical surfaces facing the incoming waves.
Perhaps these sounds that are common on all a cats, but less common on monos are the reason a lot of mono sailors are put off by the way a cat sails. For me, I've been sailing cats since I was 12 so it's probably a more natural sensation than for someone who grew up on dinghies and larger monos.
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:07   #66
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

Hi Monte - even if he meant 8+kts water speed or SOG upwind at his best angle, that's hard to believe for a 420 in those seas and winds.

Quote:
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One point is that depending where you are on board, the sounds can be hugely different.
Very true in my experience. One one long passage off watch at night I was jolted awake by a huge "explosion". I jumped out of my bunk stark nekkid and ran on deck, expecting to hear another "explosion" any second as the rig crashed down. The on watch crew was sitting at one of our very dangerous outboard helms reading a book with a head lamp. He looked up at me and thought I was sleep walking. Nothing was wrong. "Didn't you hear that", I asked? "Hear what"? Being on the inside of the hull of a fast moving cat can be like being on the inside of a drum....

Dave
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:25   #67
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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As I have remarked on the many previous threads on this subject... "ALL" Cats generally talked about or cruised on in this forum will pound/do pound sailing into a 20 kt+ wind short chop or confused seas etc. Obviously Cats that have higher, smooth bridge decks will probably pound less... but they will still pound at some point in those conditions.
Anyone who says or claims otherwise has never left the dock OR sailed in the above conditions OR has some entirely different concept of pounding/slamming that the majority of people on this forum agree on...
Monohulls will slam/pound occassionly in the above conditions...the same rules above apply.
I am continually amused by claims like such above....

Bob
Pounding up wind in bad chop? Hell yes. Pounding under the bridge deck per se, not so much. But oh yeah, the front beam disappears occasionally and you hold on; instead sliding sideways off the deck (mono), you need to be careful not to slide forward.
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:34   #68
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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When people claim their cat doesn't slam I wonder if this is when they are fully laden for cruising.
In my experience, at least (small cat), that depends on your definition of "fully laden." Some people can travel the world on a ruck sack, some women take 3 suit cases for an over night. I've seen monos with an appalling loading of crap and old junk in the lockers. How attached are you to stuff? Though I have no experience with long-term cruising, I know I can go for 2 weeks on relatively little, and have a boat that is lighter than some day sailors. I like simple, or at least to take only versatile things. Something I learned on climbing expeditions, I guess. But You should not take that to mean I rough it--there's plenty of beer. Just little I don't actually USE.

The multihuller, unless the boat is quite large, needs to think in terms of efficiency. That is the compromise. If he can't make the right loading decisions for his boat, yup, performance will be less. Some cats tolerate mass well, others do not.

What SJM said.
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:46   #69
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Hi Monte - even if he meant 8+kts water speed or SOG upwind at his best angle, that's hard to believe for a 420 in those seas and winds.

Dave
EVEN IF I MEANT!!!!!.....do you have difficulties understanding simple words in black and white? If I had meant BS I would have written BS if I had meant SOG I would have written SOG I wrote about and meant VMG

HARD TO BELIEVE it may be I had all the turning marks programmed into the Raymarine plotter as way points and since this was not my boat (and it was a new just jumped on board the boat to me) I was driving the boat using the highway screen on the plotter maxing out VMG to the waypoint.....read that slowly VMG

We were regularly and frequently hitting 8 knots VMG to the waypoint/turning mark except on a few occasions when we went under big one and downwind when the L420 just would not surf consistently in the big seas and waves.

We had NO boat speed as the transducer was OOO so we had no true wind speed and direction either so it was all about maxing VMG.

THERE WAS NO BRIDGE DECK SLAMMING.

Yes the boat was pounding quite hard when we sailed off of some of the bigger waves.

And even under a few as well.

With the wave crashing into the vertical saloon windows of the L420

That would be the same for any boat falling off a big wave.

Pounding into a big sea is one thing, bridgedeck slamming is another and a totally different thing.

And rather pertinently what this thread was supposed to be about.

I think I am done with this thread
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Old 07-05-2015, 08:56   #70
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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No you weren't. It's impossible for a 420 to make 8 kts VMG upwind.

I've been in two Heineken Regattas and two other multihull only regattas in St. Maarten and I didn't slam either. For sure the 420 and my boat is not immune to slamming just because it didn't happen on those occasions. You don't have to believe it, you just need to sail a 420 longer.

Dave

There you go then I am an even better helmsman than my reputation would suggest I CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE

Now i wonder if I can get to helm Hetarious in the 2016 St Barths Bucket

http://www.superyachttimes.com/yachts/details/675

FINI
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Old 07-05-2015, 09:16   #71
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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We were regularly and frequently hitting 8 knots VMG to the waypoint/turning mark....
Not to a mark upwind of you. Sorry. A 420 won't do that. My longer boat with boards won't do that. You may have been making over 8kts VMG to a waypoint off the wind if the plotter was doing this calc for you. That's entirely different than claiming 8+kts VMG upwind.

If you were making 8+kts VMG to a windward mark, this means you WAY overstood the upwind layline to the mark and were reaching down on it. This is not the same as VMG upwind.

Dave
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Old 07-05-2015, 10:11   #72
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

No need to spit the dummy HF I think if you are going to mention wind speed, boat speed and VMG in the first place, it's best to specify if it's True or apparent, STW or SOG and VMG upwind or to a WP. Obviously the results will be drastically different for each scenario and saying 8K VMG to an upwind mark is pretty ambiguous, with the other tack probably being closer to 0K VMG to the same WP. Not making things clear just makes readers doubt many of the comments made and sounds more like after race yacht club bar talk.
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Old 07-05-2015, 13:32   #73
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

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No need to spit the dummy HF I think if you are going to mention wind speed, boat speed and VMG in the first place, it's best to specify if it's True or apparent, STW or SOG and VMG upwind or to a WP. Obviously the results will be drastically different for each scenario and saying 8K VMG to an upwind mark is pretty ambiguous, with the other tack probably being closer to 0K VMG to the same WP. Not making things clear just makes readers doubt many of the comments made and sounds more like after race yacht club bar talk.

OMG VMG to the mark is an ABSOLUTE the quickest way to get there it matters not which tack you are on.

Obviously dependent on conditions and where the way point is vis a vis the wind direction and any current running one tack will be/may be favorable (The Paying Tack) doubly so on a round island race IF THE ISLAND will allow that course.

I sailed this boat to maximise VMG to every mark of the course

The courses were very fair I would even say excellent with a lot of windward work into big big seas.

The after race bar talk which we did not partake in, was only topped out by us getting a third place..............to the owner, his wife, myself and the crew that is all that mattered, we were all both amazed and over the moon.

We took the punishment sailed well and were rewarded for some good sailing in very very trying conditions.

Have a go at me for hitting a mark but please don't tell me I am talking rubbish when I give factual info.

I NEVER mentioned boat speed only windspeed and further explained that this was app wind as we did not have a working speed transducer.

What a shame that this has descended into this sort of rubbish.

I was there, no one else here was, just because you have your opinions does not alter my facts as explained here.

I have no dummy to spit out and no axe to grind I gave what I thought was quite amazing factual info on a cat that does not belong to me only to hear opinions that what we achieved was impossible.

I sailed in company with three L420 Hybrids in the BVI's about six years ago Highland Fling took them apart comprehensively.

The one that performed reasonably was advancing the throttles (as recommended by Lagoon) and using the motors to totally minimise the drag of the enormous propsthe L420H had (so he was MOTOR SAILING but denied that this was what he was doing)

So you may appreciate my perception of the L420's sailing performance was not good......pre racing on this diesel powered one in the Heineken.

I was very surprised by how well we could make her go upwind downwind well she was way overloaded and would not surf and catch a wave.

I truly am finished with this thread have fun arguing amongst yourselves.
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Old 07-05-2015, 13:54   #74
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

Calm down, David. If you stick around maybe you'll learn a bit about VMG.

I apologize for being a bit caustic with my first response to you. Instead of saying it was "impossible" for a 420 to sail at 8+kts VMG upwind I should have said something like - "Please explain what you mean by VMG because we may have different understandings of what it means. In my understanding a 420 and very few cruising cats - including my own - have the capability of sailing to a point directly upwind at 8+kts VMG."

I started racing cats in 1978 so I've been around a few courses.

Dave
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Old 07-05-2015, 14:34   #75
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Re: Multihulls that don't slam

So what year was this anyway? I didn't see a 42' lagoon entered this year. I did see several Leopard 46s entered which was a close rival of ours in Georgetown. The one in Georgetown was very well sailed and I imagine would have done better in the Heinken. See you next year perhaps!
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