Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-05-2011, 14:58   #46
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Another good post Brad. I don't know what the scudding technique is.

In regards to the companionway doors - on Palarran the wave would have to break 15' forward and 8' vertical of my transom to reach the cockpit. That would be one hell of a wave so I'm still thinking I'd be screwed.

Off topic alert - In regards to the cockpit drains, yes I can and really should for two reasons. Breaking waves is one, but the reason that happens every day is that when anything spills in the cockpit, it is floated through my fuel compartment. Not all of it drains out. You see, it's a freeflow through there - stupid isn't it. So hair, potato chips, and sticky rum and cokes are constantly being traped in this compartment. What I need is about a 1' square hole in the stepdown low point. I'll talk to my fiberglass guy when I'm down next week.

ID - good question and I wonder if anyone does have the answer. It seems like if the conditions are so severe that you need to switch from one to the other, the person deploying the sea anchor is in for one hell of a ride.

If I was going to buy drogues, it might be good to look at two of them then you can run one to slow down a little, and two for more breaking action. Then it would be a single line pulling them in to a winch also.
__________________

__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 15:44   #47
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,459
Images: 69
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather (Passive) Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
Brad,
I have to agree with him that on a catamaran there really isn't ever a time for a parachute sea anchor. What function do they perform that is different from using your motors keeping you in place? Brad, have you ever read a first hand account where one was used sucessfully in a sea condition that without it, the boat would have been lost? I think cat sailors need to realize they are different animals from mono's.

Yeloya's intent (I think) of this thread is to question if your better to do nothing. I think we all can agree that in extreme conditions, that's not an option. Most would also agree that it's usually the crew that breaks before the boat. Of all the video that has been posted on cat capsizes or failures and observing the seas at that time, I have to agree with him.
A (properly sized and deployed) parachute sea anchor will hold the boat bow to wind without someone having to steer it all the time. Motors will not do that. In fact in severe wind it could be very difficult to hold the boat bow to wind.

As for doing nothing not being an option - fact is quite a few boats have been abandoned and later found intact.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 16:08   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 340
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

The problem is well documented with Parachutes off the bows, as the waves and wind load up the attachment line it stretches and then as the wave passes the vessel is then fired forwards, until it is blown backwards again, with the bows generally falling off to leeward for a time and loading up the rudders.

From memory, Robin Chamberlain (Ice cat XS) wasn't a big fan of the chutes and was more in favour of drogues off the stern.

Sure there has been some well documented cases of boats surviving with chutes off the bows, even if the chute retrieval was a problem. One cat I know deployed one in the Great Australian Bight and managed to get the hole shooting match wrapped around the rudders and caused a fair bit of damage. Maybe practice makes perfect, but gee its going to be hard to simulate sick,tired dark and blowing the crabs out of the mud to get realistic practice.
__________________
cat skin hat
catty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 16:22   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Boat: Wharram Tiki 38'
Posts: 29
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

I am not sure how relevant it is here, but I have lain to a parachute sea anchor hundreds of times. It was when I was commercial fishing off the coast of new zealand on a 45' mono displacement fishing boat. Never once did it cause a problem, it was the best thing imaginable. All 3 of us on board, could not get it over the side quick enough. Never used it in a storm thou. Or a flat calm. :-)
__________________
Tiki 38' is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2011, 16:56   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 340
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki 38' View Post
I am not sure how relevant it is here, but I have lain to a parachute sea anchor hundreds of times. It was when I was commercial fishing off the coast of new zealand on a 45' mono displacement fishing boat. Never once did it cause a problem, it was the best thing imaginable. All 3 of us on board, could not get it over the side quick enough. Never used it in a storm thou. Or a flat calm. :-)
Yep, Ive often admired the simple way that the tether and the chute is all wound onto a drum winch for easy deployment/ retrieval on some commercial vessels.
__________________
cat skin hat
catty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 03:30   #51
Marine Service Provider

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Marmaris
Boat: FP Orana 2010, Lipari 2011, Hélia 2013, Catana C 47 2013
Posts: 1,033
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

I think one should seriously consider the benefit of chute/drog vs. the potential risk under extreme conditions. Talking about risks;

1-short handed / not 100% competent crew. Most people never tried these techniques before. Some are saying to have tried but in much moderate conditions. I belive there is a huge difference beetween training in 30-35 kts and having to do it in 60-65 kts maybe in the dark and with yr wife..
So, very few people is a master on that and I surely am not..

-the structure of the boat that deal with the massive and repetitive forces on windlass, cleats or winches from where you attach to chute or drog. By taking some measures (like Dave has done on his Privilege) you can increase yr chances but there is nothing that is 100 % sure.

End result, (personally) I would never attempt to try any of these techniques unless I am fully convinced there is no other survival chance..

Meanwhile, I wonder why so many forumers are still advocating these techniques while delivery skippers with handfull experience and skill are staying away from them..

Cheers

Yeloya
__________________
yeloya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 06:24   #52
Senior Cruiser
 
sneuman's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jamaica
Boat: Tayana 37 Cutter
Posts: 3,167
Images: 37
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather (Passive) Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllezCat View Post
cool videos - which led me to this one.
I would not have attempted that entrance - man has got skills.
But this is an example of what the bows are designed to do - whether moving. Or at anchor(sea or land)


Its not just danger - it is fatigue -and resting. Maybe waiting for conditions to abate before entering...
I really believe that as conditions became worse that a sea anchor is preferable to lying beam on...
But of course that "point" has infinite variations...
Interesting. We discussed this one on a previous thread when it first came out. I think he was foolish and barely escaped a broach, but others disagree.
__________________
Voyage of Symbiosis: http://svsymbiosis.blogspot.com/
sneuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 10:14   #53
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Meanwhile, I wonder why so many forumers are still advocating these techniques while delivery skippers with handfull experience and skill are staying away from them..

Cheers

Yeloya
One reason could be that delivery crews are professionals who get paid to deliver someone elses boat. They are used to the weather and seas. As I had posted before, usually it's the crew who breaks before the boat. We may be more fearful and pull the trigger on tactic's that professionals deem business as usual. And we have our wives and family as crew - and its our boat (home).

On December 28th last year the Christmas winds (30kts) and large ocean swells (4-5m) came into the Leewards. We sailed from Anguilla to St. Martin / Oyster Pond which is a short distance but exposed. I was antsy but not scared, Christophe was having a gas. I'm thinking we need another reef, he's working to increase speed.

One other topic that hasn't been discussed is in preperation of your boat, what type of tramp you have. With the Atlantic 57 that wrecked last year, they had had problems with the tramp tearing off due to breaking waves. I have a fairly closed tramp that is designed for comfort. I'm going to order a light duty open net for my Atlantic crossing. It costs $1300 and a days labor to change but will be well worth in IMO.
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 11:22   #54
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Quote:
Meanwhile, I wonder why so many forumers are still advocating these techniques while delivery skippers with handfull experience and skill are staying away from them..
Becuase few normal cruisers actually come across survival conditions.

Im a mono-huller. but actually I think theres very little between modern shallow canoe forms of monhull and cats. Ive done a fair number of off -season deliveries and have come through some very nasty stuff.

I cant comprehend teh use of sea-anchors on modern hull forms. Firslty rarely are the fixings up to it. Secondly spade rudders are very susceptible to damage if the boat is thrown backwards. I dont believe any modern hull form should be "left to is own devices". Active control is required.


Running downwind is one of my preferred methods, as modern monohulls rather like cats can handle surfing, I have deployed drogues and they do help in especially hairy conditions, but you have to be careful not to deploy them too early.

Forereaching under very small sail and engine is an extremely good tatic, it keeps the bows into the waves, prevents loss of steering and generally prevents the boat from being thrown backwards. Its a term known as "jogging" amonst the trawler fleets and its one of their preferred approachs to survival storms ( everything else they just fish in!)

All these techniques need active crew and thats the main drawback. But I just cant see sea anchors working on modern hull-forms in serious conditions. Testing them in 30-40 kts will not give you a sense of the issues that will occur in my view at 50-60kts. Equally sea state is a key factor, being caught by breaking waves is a bad bad thing in my view.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 14:05   #55
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Yeloya, I suspect that very few delivery skippers (particularly if it is a new boat that is going into charter) are sailing boats that are equipped with series drogues, or sea-anchors; as a resulst, their options are rather limited. In addition, I suspect that most have not had the misfortune (any more than members here) of having to deal with survival conditions.

I think that running before a storm under bare poles and autopilot, so long as one has sea room and and is not going too fast, is the preferred method for most storms. However, I think many also believe that one should be ready to make adjustments as seas, wind and speed increase, if only to slow the boats progress and to assist the autpilot in keeping the sterns pointed into the following seas.

I realize that a number of multis (and monos) have been recovered intact after being abandoned (Richard Woods having had that experience relatively recently); that does not, however, mean that this is the preferred course of action for all multis in all conditions. Indeed, Richard's description of the conditions and the motion of the boat meant that it was not just uncomfortable, but unsafe to remain aboard. Please understand that he, as not only a very experienced multihull sailor but also the designer of the boat, would know when it was perilously close to a capsize or pitchpole. The fact that it did not ultimately happen surely does not mean that the risk of the same was not real, or excessively high to justify remaining on board.

We, as captains of our own vessels, are responsible for making decisions about the safety equipment we carry and the strategies that we employ. I doubt very much that one approach suits all boats and all conditions, but believe that we should at least prepare what we believe to be appropriate approaches for our own boats in various conditions.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 14:31   #56
Elvish meaning 'Far-Wanderer'
 
Palarran's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Me - Michigan / Boat - Tenerife
Boat: 56' Fountaine Pajot Marquises
Posts: 2,641
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Yeloya, I suspect that very few delivery skippers (particularly if it is a new boat that is going into charter) are sailing boats that are equipped with series drogues, or sea-anchors; as a resulst, their options are rather limited. In addition, I suspect that most have not had the misfortune (any more than members here) of having to deal with survival conditions.


Brad
Brad, I think it's true most delivery skippers don't see survival conditions. But, don't you think if it's your job, and your life, and you really thought you needed a drogue or sea anchor, you'd have one? Also, why wouldn't a manufacturer provide one? I mean, they stand the chance of loosing the boat.

My guess is again, they don't think it's necessary or will save thier life - period.



One week and counting until I'm back in St. Martin. Can't wait.
__________________
Not all who wander are lost

http://www.sailblogs.com/member/palarran/
Palarran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 14:56   #57
Marine Service Provider

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Marmaris
Boat: FP Orana 2010, Lipari 2011, Hélia 2013, Catana C 47 2013
Posts: 1,033
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Thx Brad, very good answer!!

Yeloya
__________________
yeloya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 16:08   #58
Registered User
 
cat man do's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia [until the boats launched]
Boat: 50ft powercat, light,long and low powered
Posts: 4,409
Images: 36
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather (Passive) Handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
Interesting. We discussed this one on a previous thread when it first came out. I think he was foolish and barely escaped a broach, but others disagree.
Never saw what the big deal was myself but then I have done a few bar crossings over the years.
That one didnt look that hairy
__________________
"Money can't buy you happiness but it can buy you a yacht large enough to pull up right alongside it"...............David Lee Roth
Long Distance Motorboat Cruising – It Is Possible on a Small Budget
cat man do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2011, 17:03   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hervey Bay Australia
Boat: Building a Schionning Wilderness 44ft
Posts: 20
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Reading the website of Para Anchors Australia the company quotes that the para anchor drogues and para anchors have two separate functions. Here is a quote from their website which can be found at Sea Surface Anchors. Para-Anchors Australia Pty. Ltd. and then click on the left side "About Para Anchors" and read the 10 or so pages. The anchors have multiple uses apart from the survival at sea.

Parachute Sea Anchors, Drogues, Sea anchors - What's the difference? There is a difference and it is impossible for one to do the other's job. In simple terms a 9ft diameter or larger parachute sea anchor is required to hold a bow head to wind, whereas a 3ft diameter (drogue) simply does not have the power and would allow the yacht to fall backwards or be thrown by a wave. The 3ft Para-Drogue, deployed astern, is designed to slow a boat allowing directional stability downwind. The parachute sea anchor complements the Para-Drogue and vice versa. Traditional sea anchors (Admiralty cone, windsock type) are an item that time has overtaken and today should be renamed to fit into the drogue family. A drogue does not have the power and cannot develop the power to hold the bow of an ocean-going vessel head to wind in any condition.
Ideally a drogue can be used as a means of allowing the safe deployment of a Para-Anchor by substantially slowing a vessel down when it is impossible to heave to or luff up owing to sea state. In this situation the downwind speed of the vessel is substantially reduced and the Para-Anchor can be deployed over the windward side from the cockpit.
__________________
phillw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2011, 10:17   #60
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1
Re: Multihulls: Heavy Weather ( Passive ) Handling

Hope I'm not going off topic.

I guess everyone can agree that nobody wants to be caught in a survival situation for an extended period of time especially when you least expect it.

I'm looking to design a new motor cat, 24'-32'LOA, made from wood and/or fiberglass.

Lets assume we are in a worst case scenario. No power, no gas, no sails, no radio/communication, no steering control, no crew, no energy, and etc. AKA you're basically dead in the water in bad(heavy) weather with no intention of it letting up in the near future.

I was wondering what design features if any would influence a new cat design to 'passively' handle such a scenario.

i.e. As previously mentioned watertight(storm proof) door, proper drainage, etc?
__________________

__________________
47cd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weather

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.