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Old 08-01-2007, 22:41   #136
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Being in F12 conditions, to my way of thinking, has many potential liabilities. Maybe your are completely correct and even out of all of those boats, none of them, or even less than 1% of them, have ever faced such a situation. I know I will do everything in my power to be somewhere else.

But, the point I'm making is that people have criticized Lagoon for this design for a long time, yet the designers continue to build them. I'm suggesting that, given the criticism, if there had actually been a serious failure, the designers could be looking at considerable liability. Yet, the designers -- VPLP Yacht Design - intro -- have an impressive array of boats, both custom and production, cruisers and racers.

Could it be that they have actually considered the criticism voiced, and designed the boat to meet the demands of those potential stresses?

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Old 08-01-2007, 23:01   #137
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Could it be that they have actually considered the criticism voiced, and designed the boat to meet the demands of those potential stresses?

ID
Which could add into the seemingly excessive weight that lagoon seems to have compared to similar size cat's [see other thread]

And in some way's this comment made on Beneteau's could apply.

When you buy a Beneteau you are buying style over substance. You are paying for the name, not what goes into the boat.
You've seen all those glossy ads. Wanna pay for them?
posted by Brent


A mate of mine who has designed 100 ft mega yacht's down to pram dinghy's once said of this style of craft that the interior designer would come into the yacht designers office and say, "look at this fantastic interior design, now can you draw a hull around this by lunchtime".

Just like most 4x4's on the road today, you wouldn't really use them as one, but geez they look purdy.


I would seriously second think some of the design features in new 4x4's before I went on a serious offroad trip .

Just as I'd question some of the design features of the lagoon before a serious offshore trip, but most of the time i'm sure they are a comfortable thing, and do the intended job reasonably well.

You just need to decide what the intended job is.

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Old 09-01-2007, 11:16   #138
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There is a very good design philosophy behind the Lagoon windows. That vertical section has two great advantages.:

It minimises the heat transfer through the windows especially when sun is directly overhead. This can make several degrees of heat difference in hot climates.

It minimises light reflections and thus provides better visibility forward (look at large ship bridge window design including warships).

Notwithstanding these, I would worry about the strength against a really big wave.
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Old 09-01-2007, 16:18   #139
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But seeing as it is a sailing cat, not a trawler or warship, and controled from outside, visability shouldnt be the main issue.

I Agree totally on the heat, but I wasn't prepared to make the tradeoff, but that's my call.

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Old 11-01-2007, 00:33   #140
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The problem is not wind, it is 3 meters of breaking wave smacking into a para-anchored boat at 30 knots.
-Scott
Scott, My understanding is one key purpose of the para-anchor is to stop waves from breaking over the boat. In Pardey's book he observed that as long as he stayed in the shadow (slick) of the para-anchor in a hove-to state that waves didn't break into his boat. So the glass should be safe from the waves when properly hunkered down. I think the group has concluded that it is possible to keep a cat hove-to (albeit something that requires practice) and it is possible to get a properly sized para-anchor. I agree if you were dumb enough to try and sail through very high seas and winds with all that glass you would be asking for trouble. However, you would be asking for trouble in any type of boat in those conditions.

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Old 11-01-2007, 02:04   #141
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But surely you can understand that a boat with a streamlined deck and cabin will allow a wave to break smoothly over the deck and a boxy cabin won't.

I'm amazed that people can get boat's that they admit could have problems with certain aspects of the design, yet buy them anyway, and then pay a premium for it as well.

As you say any boat would be asking for trouble in these conditions, but some seem to be asking a bit harder.

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Old 11-01-2007, 02:31   #142
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Unlike Dave, Im NOT entirely ... amazed that people can get boat's that they admit could have problems with certain aspects of the design, yet buy them anyway ...
Every boat is a compromise of competing interests, which we must all resolve to our own satisfaction. I do agree that it's sometimes surprising with what some of us are satisfied.
I wouldn't usually consider vertical (or reverse shear) windows a "deal-breaker".
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Old 11-01-2007, 04:02   #143
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i find it hard to believe that my ply (read not lightweight) cat at 4000k is still 31/2 times lighter than these yet only 4ft shorter, also i reckon that like the multihaven they are a bit of an ugly looking boat, sometimes form should not follow function in the case of the upright windows however this is just what i like in a cat
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Old 11-01-2007, 04:06   #144
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oops i thought i was in the lagoon forum and was retyping the post i couldnt find apologies
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Old 11-01-2007, 09:16   #145
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Originally Posted by Absolute Wind
Scott, My understanding is one key purpose of the para-anchor is to stop waves from breaking over the boat. In Pardey's book he observed that as long as he stayed in the shadow (slick) of the para-anchor in a hove-to state that waves didn't break into his boat. So the glass should be safe from the waves when properly hunkered down. I think the group has concluded that it is possible to keep a cat hove-to (albeit something that requires practice) and it is possible to get a properly sized para-anchor.
Phil,

1. Are the Pardeys or this group going to be sailing with you?

2. I think that you're conflating heaving to (sailing slowly with jib opposite to main) with para-anchoring. The purpose of the para-anchor (as you might surmise from the name) is to _stop_ the boat, as if anchored. Once para-anchored, one probably wouldn't (couldn't) do much to control the boat other than adjusting the bridal or rigging some sort of (small) riding sail.

3. One of the latter chapters of Bowditch has very nice tables giving size and speed of open-ocean waves. If you are stopped, they will hit you. If you surf you might have some inkling of how powerful waves are, otherwise, there's just no polite expression...

4. Should you find yourself para-anchored as in point #2 above, I think that a prudent skipper should have a substantial portion of spirit, suitably packed and stored in a place not likely to be inconvenienced by by broken windows, vertical or otherwise.

Regards,

-Scott
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Old 11-01-2007, 13:02   #146
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Originally Posted by GordMay
Unlike Dave, I’m NOT entirely ”... amazed that people can get boat's that they admit could have problems with certain aspects of the design, yet buy them anyway ...”
".
Fair point Gord, To that I should ad if I had 2 Lagoon's side by side, 1 with vertical windows, one without I feel that the non-vertical window model would be better able to handle a wave over the front.

It would probably sail and motor better to windward with it's more streamlined cabin as well.

If the vert window model was a fair bit cheaper i'd re-think, but they are probably a fair bit more expensive.

I would use the same argument for boat's with low bridgedeck clearance as well.

But that's another thread.

Dave
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Old 26-01-2007, 12:23   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do
On the newie we have built our Anchor bridle/parachute bridle from the black stuff.

When speaking to some composite engineers they asked if I could pull any slack out of the anchor rope in 60 knot's and i said that I would have thought that 2 or 3 guy's surely would, 'cause I pulled the pick up in 50 knots on my last boat by hand by myself.

They then suggested that maybe no more than 500 kg load would apply which sounds light, but how much can you pull up? Thay also thought just a few layers of 600gsm Carbon extending back 300 mm would be enough.

SO, as I had a heap left over from a couple of jobs ago, and it owed me nothing we went back 1000mm and used 15 layers of 600gsm carbon and fanned it out over a big area. Should be right.

I agree on those window's on the Laggoon, very vulnerable, but hopfully the 10 mm Lexan or Shinkolite ones at an angle will be ok on ours plus the deck is 1900mm above the water so that will help.

Dave


I finally got around to posting a picture of my parachute sea anchor chainplates that I installed in new Zealand. I use these chainplates when I deploy the parachute sea anchor off the bow. As you can see, they have a bail out in front of the bow so that they are chafe free when I am using the sea anchor bridle.

I also use the sea anchor chainplate bridle system when anchored near shore in major storms.

So if anyone is not happy with the strength of the cleats on their bows, they can always put deck chainplates in as back up or primary attachment points of anchor bridles.

Dave
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Old 26-01-2007, 17:58   #148
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... I think that a prudent skipper should have a substantial portion of spirit, suitably packed and stored in a place not likely to be inconvenienced by by broken windows, vertical or otherwise.
Regards,
-Scott
I love an elegant turn of phrase. This was.
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Old 26-01-2007, 20:05   #149
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I wouldn't worry about the Lagoon's windows. I mean being a cat it's going to flip on the first puff of wind isn't it? With all these cats floating around inverted maybe I don't need a boat - surely soon we'll all be able to skip across the oceans hopping from one upside - downer to the other won't we?
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Old 27-01-2007, 18:41   #150
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I wouldn't worry about the Lagoon's windows. I mean being a cat it's going to flip on the first puff of wind isn't it?
I used to race cats and sail with one pontoon completely out of the water and bury the lee pontoon up to the shroud. We still didn't flip. Pitch pole...now that is a different story, we were close to doing that. However, this type of cat was a day light day sailer and nothing like an heavy Lagoon. I will be headed to Florida for the Miami Boat Show and will ask if anyone has experienced a tip caused by wind alone on a cat of this weight and beam. My guess is that you almost would have to intentionally do something stupid to get a cat designed like the Lagoon to flip. I'm all ears to other reports.
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