Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: If you won the lottery and the prize was a mono or catamaran which would you choose?
I currently own a monohull and would choose a new monohull 48 27.91%
I currently own a monohull and would choose a new cruising catamaran 38 22.09%
I currently own a catamaran and would choose a new monohull 3 1.74%
I currently own a catamaran and would choose a new catamaran 83 48.26%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-05-2008, 21:03   #91
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No longer post here
Boat: Catalac Catamaran
Posts: 2,462
This has to be a record for thread drift
__________________

__________________
Tropic Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-05-2008, 22:26   #92
Senior Cruiser
 
Steve Rust's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Minneapolis MN
Boat: Searunner 40 Trimaran, Siruis 22 mono, 16 foot MFG daysailor
Posts: 515
Images: 82
I was thinking the same thing Rick, you just beat me to it. Where are the moderators when.....oh, wait a minute
__________________

__________________
Don't trust your dog to guard your lunch.

Patrick, age 9
Steve Rust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2008, 04:59   #93
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
I think they are just happy we are not fighting over how many hulls are enough....

__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2008, 05:18   #94
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: No longer post here
Boat: Catalac Catamaran
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Rust View Post
I was thinking the same thing Rick, you just beat me to it. Where are the moderators when.....oh, wait a minute
Yeah, they're busy emailing me this morning about me being a bad boy again.
__________________
Tropic Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-05-2008, 06:46   #95
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickm505 View Post
Yeah, they're busy emailing me this morning about me being a bad boy again.

Oh no...please tell me you didn't point out the common knowledge among certain people that every sailor with an IQ above a certain number drives a multihull......
__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2008, 04:54   #96
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Oh no...please tell me you didn't point out the common knowledge among certain people that every sailor with an IQ above a certain number drives a multihull......
And those would be people with delusions of grandeur coupled with a bipolar need to find stability in their life either with masts facing up (or) down

(I`m probably gonna get an email for that)
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2008, 04:59   #97
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Nah, these are at least intended to be funny - in a passive/aggressive sort of way.

brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2008, 05:31   #98
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
And those would be people with delusions of grandeur coupled with a bipolar need to find stability in their life either with masts facing up (or) down

(I`m probably gonna get an email for that)

Nah, I agree with you. Masts that stay vertical are good. And while I certainly would not have pointed out the inherent instability of people who choose masts that spend their lives looking like metronomes....I am glad that you did.
__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2008, 09:38   #99
...

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Nah, I agree with you. Masts that stay vertical are good. And while I certainly would not have pointed out the inherent instability of people who choose masts that spend their lives looking like metronomes....I am glad that you did.
At last some good friendly banter between both camps.

Now I will probably get into trouble for this, BUT, are there any moderators on this forum that own multihulls??

Just curious!

The reason I ask is that some of the moderators react very strongly/emotionally and quickly to what appear to me to be very innocent questions and others like Hud3 seem to be very objective with sensible, intelligent and constructive answers, especially on the multihull thread side.
__________________
ireaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-05-2008, 13:39   #100
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
To answer your first question..Yes.
The rest.... it has nothing to do with what boat we have. It has to do with the rules and that we usually are responding to a call of help from a member that feels they are being insulted. In the past, most of us "Staff members" never really looked in here. We are only alerted when someone tosses his toys and we get told. Because we have had so many issues here, we now frequent here to ensure everyone is playing nice.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2008, 08:25   #101
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
Casting a little "light" on the subject...

These multi/mono threads tend to generate a lot of "heat", but not much "light" (as in "enlightenment").

I recently came across an interesting post in the SSCA forum that describes the author's attempt to analyze actual data from records of boating accidents and insurance company acturial information. The poster, Sandy Daugherty, was an employee of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). The data were not perfect, but Sandy was able to make some interesting observations and draw a few conclusions.

The entire post is included below, with the kind permission of the author. Thanks, Sandy!

Hud


" Before I retired from the NTSB I had the opportunity to study the complete Coast Guard database of boating accidents and Summary
Data of proprietary actuarial information from sources within the Lloyds' Groups, with a focus on vessels with accomodations including permanent berths, head(s) and galley. I tried to exclude beach cats and tris, and daysailers by excluding boats under 24 feet.

The data was not user-friendly and required a lot of external correlation because many vessels were incorrectly classified. That ultimately prevented releasing any conclusions because GI+MGI=GO (garbage in plus more garbage in still equals garbage out.) This was also a problem with the older NTSB databases that included pre-digital-age reporting. However, I discovered in the process that there were few differences between monohul and multihull rates of occurrence. That's easy to understand; human error trumps mechanical failure and design deficiency evermore.

Here are some of the facts that did become apparent:
Vessels designed for racing and record attempts break. Vessels built for cruising don't break. People who race drive themselves and their vessels to the limit. [please forgive the pun] Cruisers drive their homes to the next nice place.

The rates of actual vessel loss (outside of competition) remained the same for monohulls and multihulls, over many years, with catamarans emerging slightly ahead of other vessels in the last years of available data. Reports of large numbers of catamaran roll-overs are probably anecdotal as accident statistics reveal a (slight) decline, with a slight increase in sinkings among monohulls. There was a lot of confusion in the data between catamarans and trimarans, which I can only suggest an interpretation for:

Vessels purpose built for competition are not recorded as such. Each accident had to be researched individually. Many were not insured, meaning that Insurance data would not take them into account. In fact, Many sinkings of monohulls were extremely difficult to document because they were never widely reported. This is changing as news media is becoming more interested, especially in colorful visuals.

A very small percentage of trimarans are sold for cruising, as a very small percentage of catamarans are sold for racing. The best correlation between racing and competition vessels was a ratio of lwl to mast height.

Where I was able to distinguish between cruising and competition vessels, I found that the rate of personal injuries and single fatalities was higher among monohulls. That should merit further study because those injuries appeared to occur in better weather conditions, not in worse. These accidents included cabin injuries, man-overboards, and deck injuries such as inadvertant jibes.

My conclusions were impaired by the quality of data, and my proposal of a National Transportation Safety Board Special Study was properly overshadowed by more important issues. But there is enough factual data to prove that cruising multihulls are no more, and possible less dangerous than cruising monohulls in all reported conditions of weather, traffic, and human frailty, regardless of location."
__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2008, 09:55   #102
Registered User
 
Keegan's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: World Resident
Boat: Dolphin 460 Catamaran WONDERLAND
Posts: 399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
These multi/mono threads tend to generate a lot of "heat", but not much "light" (as in "enlightenment").


My conclusions were impaired by the quality of data, and my proposal of a National Transportation Safety Board Special Study was properly overshadowed by more important issues. But there is enough factual data to prove that cruising multihulls are no more, and possible less dangerous than cruising monohulls in all reported conditions of weather, traffic, and human frailty, regardless of location."

Interesting information Hud. It is not surprising that most cruising boats whether mono or multi have a similar safety record if there is an adequate skill level of the crew. Thanks.

Since this is also a casual as well as social forum, I would suspect that some threads dont really need to result in enlightenment, but enlightenment is always a nice result when it happens.
__________________
Cheers,
Keegan
Keegan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2008, 11:23   #103
...

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
These multi/mono threads tend to generate a lot of "heat", but not much "light" (as in "enlightenment").

I recently came across an interesting post in the SSCA forum that describes the author's attempt to analyze actual data from records of boating accidents and insurance company acturial information. The poster, Sandy Daugherty, was an employee of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). The data were not perfect, but Sandy was able to make some interesting observations and draw a few conclusions.

The entire post is included below, with the kind permission of the author. Thanks, Sandy!

Hud


" Before I retired from the NTSB I had the opportunity to study the complete Coast Guard database of boating accidents and Summary
Data of proprietary actuarial information from sources within the Lloyds' Groups, with a focus on vessels with accomodations including permanent berths, head(s) and galley. I tried to exclude beach cats and tris, and daysailers by excluding boats under 24 feet.

The data was not user-friendly and required a lot of external correlation because many vessels were incorrectly classified. That ultimately prevented releasing any conclusions because GI+MGI=GO (garbage in plus more garbage in still equals garbage out.) This was also a problem with the older NTSB databases that included pre-digital-age reporting. However, I discovered in the process that there were few differences between monohul and multihull rates of occurrence. That's easy to understand; human error trumps mechanical failure and design deficiency evermore.

Here are some of the facts that did become apparent:
Vessels designed for racing and record attempts break. Vessels built for cruising don't break. People who race drive themselves and their vessels to the limit. [please forgive the pun] Cruisers drive their homes to the next nice place.

The rates of actual vessel loss (outside of competition) remained the same for monohulls and multihulls, over many years, with catamarans emerging slightly ahead of other vessels in the last years of available data. Reports of large numbers of catamaran roll-overs are probably anecdotal as accident statistics reveal a (slight) decline, with a slight increase in sinkings among monohulls. There was a lot of confusion in the data between catamarans and trimarans, which I can only suggest an interpretation for:

Vessels purpose built for competition are not recorded as such. Each accident had to be researched individually. Many were not insured, meaning that Insurance data would not take them into account. In fact, Many sinkings of monohulls were extremely difficult to document because they were never widely reported. This is changing as news media is becoming more interested, especially in colorful visuals.

A very small percentage of trimarans are sold for cruising, as a very small percentage of catamarans are sold for racing. The best correlation between racing and competition vessels was a ratio of lwl to mast height.

Where I was able to distinguish between cruising and competition vessels, I found that the rate of personal injuries and single fatalities was higher among monohulls. That should merit further study because those injuries appeared to occur in better weather conditions, not in worse. These accidents included cabin injuries, man-overboards, and deck injuries such as inadvertant jibes.

My conclusions were impaired by the quality of data, and my proposal of a National Transportation Safety Board Special Study was properly overshadowed by more important issues. But there is enough factual data to prove that cruising multihulls are no more, and possible less dangerous than cruising monohulls in all reported conditions of weather, traffic, and human frailty, regardless of location."
Well said and thanks again for good information, IMHO it seems to me that really most accidents and problems are caused by bad seamanship and a lack of experience and that 99% of the time the type of craft is immaterial, unless it was like the tri that the American Author (forgot his name) built last year out of goods from Home Depot and was going to circumnavigated until his welds broke about 50 miles out.
__________________
ireaney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-05-2008, 13:29   #104
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
I believe you're talking about David Vann and his trimaran named "Tin Can". Yeah, that's in a class by itself!

I've always believed that most boats are designed built to be safe for their intended purpose, and as long as they are sailed with skill and maintained properly, there will rarely be problems. Problems arise when people make mistakes--errors in judgment, loss of concentration (fatigue), sailing beyond one's skill level. I know that's true for some of my own "close calls", as I've learned the ropes over the years.

Sailing cruising catamarans safely requires a somewhat different set of skills or techniques, and an experience level to anticipate what the boat may do in various challenging wind and wave circumstances. I would wager that many of the multihull incidents debated in some of these threads are precipitated by "operator error", not an inherent flaw in the design of boats themselves. Of course, "operator error" applies to monohulls, too!
__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-05-2008, 12:21   #105
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
What a great forum, Hud! Thank you for telling me about it!
I lost a tooth recently. It's wrapped up in a lottery ticket under my pillow, with a gentle note to the tooth fairy describing the infinite advantages of my winning enough money to buy, dock, and care for a MaineCat 41 and a hybrid Outremer 42 together. I need both so I can finally decide which is the best way to sail. The next drawing is Friday, so I'll be busy placing those orders next week.
__________________

__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
multihull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monohull vs. Catamaran Liveaboard Wailin Liveaboard's Forum 9 26-04-2008 23:12
35' Monohull for sail JerryC Classifieds Archive 0 16-01-2008 15:09
Monohull For sail JerryC Classifieds Archive 0 04-01-2008 11:25
from monohull to multihull bahamarich Multihull Sailboats 6 09-10-2007 20:42
Center Cockpit Monohull ??? Lightfin Monohull Sailboats 12 29-11-2005 17:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.