MULTIHULL MONOHULL SURVEY

[catty]

Originally Posted by Factor

. My rsearch into the physics of all this suggests that it would be nigh on impossible to sail one over unless you are a certifiable lunatic carrying evry scrap of canvas in a cyclone, possible to have wave action cause the inversions but again one would wonder why prudent actions such as para anchor wouldnt have been used in the first instance. But thats theoretical so I could be wrong - keen to hear from Andy (by the way - I notice that a lot of USA sailors call themselves captain, whats the go there?)

Hmmm Factor. The last 40 odd foot cruising cat that was sailed over in the Whitsundays had its asymmetric spinnaker set. Try recalculating your theories using Kelsals formulae with full main and spinnaker. You will find a cyclone is not a necessary ingredient..

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Captains have bigger........umm...........you know...........Ummmm.........thingys.....like..... you know?

Originally Posted by Factor

...by the way - I notice that a lot of USA sailors call themselves captain, whats the go there?)

I think the word that Therapy was seeking may have been “ego”.

The term “Captain”, when referring to the operator of pleasure boat, is generally a (grandiloquent) honorific.

Both 'skipper' and 'captain' refer to the person in charge of the ship or boat. The technical difference is that the title Captain should be reserved for someone who rightfully has a piece of paper stating that he has that rank (Master). Skipper can loosely refer to anyone in charge of a boat or ship, be it a real Captain or not.

Captain is both a nautical term ,and a rank in various uniformed organizations. When the U. S Coast Guard issues a license to a person, the License says Master not captain. The word came to English via French from the Latin capitaneus ("chief") which is itself derived from the Latin word for "head" (caput).

A skipper is a person who has command of a boat or ship. The word is derived from the Dutch word schipper; schip is Dutch for "ship". In Dutch sch- is pronounced “sx” and English-speakers rendered this as “sk”.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by catty

Hmmm Factor. The last 40 odd foot cruising cat that was sailed over in the Whitsundays had its asymmetric spinnaker set. Try recalculating your theories using Kelsals formulae with full main and spinnaker. You will find a cyclone is not a necessary ingredient..

Which boat? What wind speed? And I stand by my comment about a 47 foot cat requiring very very high winds to be sailed over. As long as stupidity or inexperience is also added, eg rounding up in a gust rather than bearing away, sailing with excessive amounts of canvas up etc.

And 40 foot is substantially smaller than 47 foot, and I am not being smart here, a 47 ft cat is (all things being equal) likely to be a much bigger heavier boat than a 40 foot cat. But anyway, we will start with the 40 foot boat, which one was it, I dont recall it.

I should also point out that I was also looking at the abstract of wind induced, without any wave assistance at all, which in a non theoretical world is an unlikely scenario.

The point of the comment in any event was not to dispute that a 47 foot cat was sailed over - it was to invite the person claiming that to be the case to give those of us who sail multis something to learn from, because as I pointed out, I havent been able to do it is 20 years and more of multi sailing.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by cptnandy

I'd Stick with a mono, because I captained a 47' cat for a while and I can tell you from personal experiance that while they are roomy and fast they do flip. Once upside down well... they stay that way.

Hell, everyone "knows" that cats tip over. As a matter of fact I have to step ever so carefully when sailing mine. After all, they're only big Hobie cats.. right? (tongue firmly in cheek)

The only person I've ever heard of dumping a 47' cat was an inexperienced captain who had no business taking what I seem to recall was a delivery job. This was many years ago. He didn't reef when his crew recommended and then eventually demanded. The boat broke, His crew mutinied. The captain was fired for incompetence.

Last I heard he transistioned into the very challenging newspaper delivery business.

I'm not saying this is the guy .....

[ldrhawke]

Most any boat will sink in the perfect storm when sailed by idiots going against common sense and sailing into it

Even monohulls sailing in San Fransico Bay trying to act as surfers.

I think I'd consider finding another hobby

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Captains have bigger........umm...........you know...........Ummmm.........thingys.....like..... you know?

Hats? or just 'Egos'

[catty]

Originally Posted by Factor

Which boat? What wind speed? And I stand by my comment about a 47 foot cat requiring very very high winds to be sailed over. As long as stupidity or inexperience is also added, eg rounding up in a gust rather than bearing away, sailing with excessive amounts of canvas up etc.

And 40 foot is substantially smaller than 47 foot, and I am not being smart here, a 47 ft cat is (all things being equal) likely to be a much bigger heavier boat than a 40 foot cat. But anyway, we will start with the 40 foot boat, which one was it, I dont recall it.

I should also point out that I was also looking at the abstract of wind induced, without any wave assistance at all, which in a non theoretical world is an unlikely scenario.

The point of the comment in any event was not to dispute that a 47 foot cat was sailed over - it was to invite the person claiming that to be the case to give those of us who sail multis something to learn from, because as I pointed out, I havent been able to do it is 20 years and more of multi sailing.

Ok factor, If you take Mr wharrams dynamic stability formulae .......James Wharram Designs -Home of the self-build Catamaran.

And plug in the details of say Fastcats boat which I understand is pretty close to 47 feet . If you google fastcat you will get most of the variables required, or better still ask fast cat himself. My preliminary number crunching using mr fast cats stated lightship displacement of 5000 kgs, mainsail of 74 m sq. plus a spinaker of say 220 m sq the answer is around 20 knots. Try it yourself. Certainly not cyclonic.

As for the 40 odd foot cat mentioned, the name eludes me at the moment but it did receive a short article in Australian multi-hulls. Capsizing under kite at the top end of Whitsunday island from memory. These magazines are worth a brief read if you get the chance.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by catty

Ok factor, If you take Mr wharrams dynamic stability formulae .......And plug in the details of say Fastcats boat which I understand is pretty close to 47 feet . If you google fastcat you will get most of the variables required, or better still ask fast cat himself. My preliminary number crunching using mr fast cats stated lightship displacement of 5000 kgs, mainsail of 74 m sq. plus a spinaker of say 220 m sq the answer is around 20 knots. Try it yourself.

So we use Wharrams (polynesian cats) formula to analyse Gideons boat - hmmmm doesnt really work for me.

As for the 40 odd foot cat mentioned, the name eludes me at the moment but it did receive a short article in Australian multi-hulls. Capsizing under kite at the top end of Whitsunday island from memory.

When. What design. What were the weather conditions and sea conditions. To arrive at logical conclusions I sort of need some logical data.

These magazines are worth a brief read if you get the chance

Couldn't agree more, in fact I personally know a number of their journalists as well as the editor.

CAPT ANDY I'd Stick with a mono, because I captained a 47' cat for a while and I can tell you from personal experiance that while they are roomy and fast they do flip. Once upside down well... they stay that way

But enough of the tangential stuff, the key point here is the bloke who came on and said - cats are dangerous I sailed a 47 footer over once so that proves it.

I and other asked him for some info (he hasn't been back yet ) because it appears to me that it would take some effort or abysmal lack of competence to do what he said he did on a 47 foot boat. Like I said - 20 years or more on multis and I havent achieved that feat, so I want to learn from someone who has.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Factor

I and other asked him for some info (he hasn't been back yet ) because it appears to me that it would take some effort or abysmal lack of competence to do what he said he did on a 47 foot boat. Like I said - 20 years or more on multis and I havent achieved that feat, so I want to learn from someone who has.

Ed Baird, of BMW Oracle's Extreme 40 catamaran “Alinghi“ fame (May 21/08), may be able to teach us all something about sailing towards the edge.
Apparently, they’re still learning too.
Alinghi capsize - 27k

[Factor]

Surely we have been around this before, trying to extrapolate racing boats behaviours into an application for a production cruising boat is as sensible as trying to extrapolate Formula 1 behaviours into your Honda Jazz. There is a hint even in the name of the boat type -

Oracle's Extreme 40

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Factor

...trying to extrapolate racing boats behaviours into occurrence application for a production cruising boat is as sensible as trying to extrapolate Formula 1 behaviours into your Honda Jazz. There is a hint even in the name of the boat type -

Given the relative rarity of such occurrences, extrapolations may have to suffice.
The mechanisms of extreme events shouldn’t differ all that much between high performance machines, driven to (& beyond) their limits; and our more mundane cruising boats & Hondas.
You did express a desire to “learn from someone who has” (capsized). The interview with the Oracle racing team describes how they capsized, which might be instructive to all of us.
Notwithstanding, my reference to the “Alinghi“ mishap was offered to “lighten up” the discussion, which some to be taking “personally” (note the smiley).

[sneuman]

Agreed, this is apples and oranges, re: crusing vs. performance cats.

What IS interesting, however, is that a match race could now realistically be lost due to a capsize for the first time in AC racing history. In fact, with both Oracle and Alinghi having gone over in trials, it seems, at least at this point, entirely probable.

If you think there are misconceptions about catamarans now, just wait until such an incident is beamed around the world during the next AC finals.

[Alan Wheeler]

cats are dangerous I sailed a 47 footer over once so that proves it.

Factor, DO NOT put words into other members mouths that they did not say. this statement was not stated at all. You are over dramatising the entire discussion.

When. What design. What were the weather conditions and sea conditions. To arrive at logical conclusions I sort of need some logical data.

Did you not read his comment fully?? You don't need to go on challenging another members comments by pulling their integrity into the discussion. He stated what he knows, take it as you will, but keep the inuendos to yourself.

As long as stupidity or inexperience is also added, eg rounding up in a gust rather than bearing away, sailing with excessive amounts of canvas up etc.

Maybe this is the entire sicking point for you. No one at any time has ever stated on any forum here, that cats just fall over in normal everyday sailing. The exact same can be said for mono's. It is extreme situations, be it weather or a major mistake made on board that the result occurs.
Factor, please cool down or we will help you to do so.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Did you not read his comment fully?? You don't need to go on challenging another members comments by pulling their integrity into the discussion. He stated what he knows, take it as you will, but keep the inuendos to yourself.

With Respect - catty said that a 40 foot cat went over in the whitsundays. I have lived and sailed in Queensland for more years than I care to remember, I am the commodore of one yacht club, member of a couple of others, member of the Multihull Yacht Club of Queensland safety committee on occassion. I review ALL data connected with serious marine incidents as it comes to hand, I regularly correspond to with Marine Safety Queensland regarding legislative submissions connected with yacht safety.

I do not have any record of the incident he refers to. That isnt questioning his integrity, its a fact - I do not have any record, the fault may be with me, my records may be inaccurate, so I am keen to get as much data as I can to ensure I understand the dimensions of the issue.

A clear position in this whle area of multihull safety is that the data (at least the data I have for Queensland) fairly demonstrably shows that it was poor skipper decision making in every single instance of serious incident involving a multihull and loss of life or the need for external intervention in this jurisidction.

So it is entirely reasonable to want detail of an incident I dont have recorded so that informed logical conclusions can be arrived at.

Why is it that when a broad comment is made and specifics are sought that the person asking for specifics is deemd to be a trouble maker?

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Agreed, this is apples and oranges, re: crusing vs. performance cats.

What IS interesting, however, is that a match race could now realistically be lost due to a capsize for the first time in AC racing history. In fact, with both Oracle and Alinghi having gone over in trials, it seems, at least at this point, entirely probable.

If you think there are misconceptions about catamarans now, just wait until such an incident is beamed around the world during the next AC finals.

I think we'll see them in 90ft x 90ft trimarans. Incidently, it's great to see the America's Cup finally enter the new Millenium.