Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-02-2008, 08:45   #31
Registered User
 
mark_morwood's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cruising (Atlantic -> Med -> Carib -> Pacific)
Boat: Vancouver 36, Hobie 33, Catana 48, now all with new owners
Posts: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
According to the literature, Mark is correct - it is exceedingly rare (albeit still possible) for a well-designed cat to capsize under force of wind alone. As to bearing off when overpowered while sailing to windward, I have never done this and have not heard that this is the recommended procedure for catamarans. In fact it is counter-intuitive ...

Brad
To be clear, I would not suggest bearing off in a gust when going to windward, just that you have to be careful to decide whether to bear off or head up based on the true wind, not the apparent wind, as depending on the performance of your cat - the apparent wind will often be forward of the beam, even when sailing well off the wind. This took a little learning when I moved from mono-hulls to our cat, as my natural reaction was to always head up in a gust if the wind appeared to be forward of the beam.

And as was pointed out, avoiding gybing in these circumstances is a good idea.

Mark.
__________________

__________________
mark_morwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:07   #32
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Thanks Sean, but understand that there will no doubt be differing opinions. Like you, I have spent my life in monohulls until recently. And some would say that the cat I bought, due its displacement, sails much like a monohull only worse to windward! I disagree, of course, although I must confess that she is no lighweight flyer.

I don't know what boat you are in the process of purchasing, but I suspect that it may also be down a couple of notches on the performance curve for modern catamarans. If so, I suspect that the greatest differences for you initially will be:

1. The beam, especially at the bows. This makes docking much more intimidating than in a monohull.
2. The increased windage and the tendancy of a cat to float over the water, rather than carve its way through it like a monohull. Again, generally only a problem in docking (although relevant in sailing to windward and in anchoring). The good news is that cats with twins can be turned on a dime and you will learn to compensate. In fact, you will also find cats much more maneuvarable in reverse than any monohull. Indeed, this is also true for cats with only a single engine as there are two rudders spaced further apart.
3. Sailing to windward. Pointing will not be a forte and you will be required to give much more consideration to VMG (velocity made good) rather than using the standard technique in a mono: point until she starts to luff, and then bear off slightly until the luff telltales are flowing smoothly aft. In time, you will get a pretty good idea of the best compromise of velocity and course in varyihg wind conditions for your boat. The technique I have described in the posting above works much better in cats that are capable of substantially exceeding hull speed; accordingly, I suspect that it will be much less critical in your boat, especially when laden with a number of paying guests.
Nevertheless, virtually all cats sail faster with the apparent wind forward of the beam.
4. Jibing. Much easier in a cat as there is much less risk of a broach. Nevertheless, you will still need to have your traveller on centerline before the jibe.
5. Tacking. Every cat is different. On the other hand, most cats will have some difficulty completing a clean tack in light air. In my experience, the keys are:
a) ensure that you have good boat speed just prior to the tack (and that you are sailing close to the wind and not reaching just prior to putting the helm over);
b) make a decisive move when putting the helm over (albeit not so violent as to stall the rudders);
c) backwind the jib;
d) let off on the main after tacking (as a tightly sheeted main will tend to cause the boat to want to return to windward);
e) regain boat speed by bearing off after the tack.
f) sheet in, gain speed and head up gradually, bear-off, sheet in and head up gradually again, etc. as described above.

In a worst case scenario, you can always use the engine to assist in making the tack (and until you get used to the boat, that may be a good idea in either very light air, or when tacking into very heavy seas). The good news is that cats will actually remain maneuverable when sailing backwards! Wait until you get some rearward momentum and then put the helm over to swing the bows onto the new tack and then reverse the helm.

The above are all directed towards a crusing cat with keels and not boards, although many of the same principles are said to apply. I have read about (but have no personal experience with) a cat with boards and if yours is so equipped, you should get the opinions of those who do.

Finally, you will also, of course, find flying a chute much easier than on a mono as there are no poles to contend with.

Brad
__________________

__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:17   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: N Wales
Boat: Broadblue 42
Posts: 24
Just reading through this thread and I looked at Bill Goodwards comments about the limit of wind speed for cats and monos. To my mind it looks as if he has got things the wrong way round, although I am well aware of what he is trying to say.

When sailing a cat you should always set the sails for the gust speed so if the wind is blowing 20knts gusting to 30knts your cat should really be reefed to suit 30knts of wind. Normally on a mono you would set your sails for 20knts and then just let her heel a bit more in the gusts.

Obviously you will get better at knowing when to reef and how much with experience, in the above example your experience may say "I can safely set my sails for 25knts because the 30knt gust is very rare and the sea state is OK" alternatively experience may say "those 30knt gusts are now a bit too frequent, the sea is picking up a bit and I think the wind is increasing - time to set the sails for maybe 35knts"

The basic rule in a cat is that it is much better to reef early and get caught with too little sail up than vice versa. As others have said you lose less speed in a cat than a mono if you are undercanvassed.
__________________
Llamedos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:18   #34
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryv View Post
At times a cat may simply get going too fast for sea conditions. If wave heights and spacing are such that the bows are digging in and the trampoline ( or foredeck if solid ) are awash you need to reef to slow down. You probably wont have this problem on a Prout but it is common on faster cats.
I'm not getting a Prout.

But thanks... this is a good way to think of it.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:19   #35
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Sean, one way of looking at is this: in a catamaran, reducing sail is your first step in preparation for strong winds, and not your first step in defence againt (as is often the case in a monohull).

Keeping some sail up is still a good idea as the sails reduce pitching in a cat, just as they do in a monohull. Nevertheless, at some point you may be down to bare poles and still moving forward at a velocity that causes you some concern about pitchpoling. At that point the answer is not turning on the diesels, but rather slowing your forward momentum by either streaming warps or trailing a drogue (or series drogue). If a storm reaches survival conditions with huge breaking seas, many prefer the use of a good sea-anchor deployed from a bridle with adequate rode.

Still, the odds of facing this in your current endeavour (day charters out of the Northeast) are pretty slim.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:30   #36
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Sean, one way of looking at is this: in a catamaran, reducing sail is your first step in preparation for strong winds, and not your first step in defence againt (as is often the case in a monohull).

Keeping some sail up is still a good idea as the sails reduce pitching in a cat, just as they do in a monohull. Nevertheless, at some point you may be down to bare poles and still moving forward at a velocity that causes you some concern about pitchpoling. At that point the answer is not turning on the diesels, but rather slowing your forward momentum by either streaming warps or trailing a drogue (or series drogue). If a storm reaches survival conditions with huge breaking seas, many prefer the use of a good sea-anchor deployed from a bridle with adequate rode.

Still, the odds of facing this in your current endeavour (day charters out of the Northeast) are pretty slim.

Brad
ha ha... you're right Brad. The odds of survival situations chartering out of the Norh East is fairly low. I won't be going out in any rough conditions (ie: even small craft advisory) with guests.

I guess the way I think (just my odd way of thinking) is that if I understand the boat's behavior in truly horrific conditions, the moderately rough stuff can be dealt with more easily. I definitely understand the warps/drogue concept for a cat. Makes a lot of sense.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:40   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Tampa fl
Boat: Alura 30
Posts: 593
those are good points Brad.I am still in the process of learning how to sail our cat,every time we go out I pick up a new thing.we went out last Sunday sailing in the gulf of Mexico,the weather was 15 to 20,so I decided to reef before we went out,by the time we got out of Long boat pass,it was 20 to 25 in gust,we maneged to do 10 to 11 knots all the time,but I felt very confortable with the reefed main and was glad that I did it because I am pretty much on my own when it has to do with handling the sails.
JC.
__________________
jean1146 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:47   #38
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
ssulli,

You might want to take advatage of those northern winds. Just put out a scrap of headsail, and head south. Even on the ICW you can get in some sailing time. Also you can get the feel of her abilty under a small piece of sail. As days pass you will roll out the rest of the sail. Then start out with a dbl in the main, and a scrap of headsail. Before long you will look forward to some wind, and move outside. Besides the cat is made for behind the beam sailing. SO FLAT, and steady....

My wife at first wanted to use the ICW. Once she got a taste of making 200+ days instead of 50 miles. She only wants to go outside now. We use the northern wind all the time heading south out of Jax Fl. We do a lot of 10knot average times to Miami. Just stay out of the stream. We put on hull on the beach closing in on West Palm......
__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:51   #39
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagine2frolic View Post
ssulli,

You might want to take advatage of those northern winds. Just put out a scrap of headsail, and head south. Even on the ICW you can get in some sailing time. Also you can get the feel of her abilty under a small piece of sail. As days pass you will roll out the rest of the sail. Then start out with a dbl in the main, and a scrap of headsail. Before long you will look forward to some wind, and move outside. Besides the cat is made for behind the beam sailing. SO FLAT, and steady....

My wife at first wanted to use the ICW. Once she got a taste of making 200+ days instead of 50 miles. She only wants to go outside now. We use the northern wind all the time heading south out of Jax Fl. We do a lot of 10knot average times to Miami. Just stay out of the stream. We put on hull on the beach closing in on West Palm......
Good ideas... except "south" of where my boat is would be a place I'm not supopsed to go... CUBA!
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 09:55   #40
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
VERY funny. I suspect you'd be flat and steady until the gunboats arrived!
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 10:06   #41
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
LOLOLOL,
For some reason I thought you were from up north. This is the kind of thing that keeps me humble....lololol
__________________
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 10:08   #42
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
VERY funny. I suspect you'd be flat and steady until the gunboats arrived!
Yeah, I think I might need to start a new thread for that one:

"What do you do in a cat when the gunboats arrive?"

In my mono, I'd try to shoot my way out and die a glorious death, but in a cat, what's the best way to....?

ha ha

PS: I am from way up north. I'm just visiting Florida to buy a cat to bring back up North.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 10:19   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: germany, Berlin, boat at Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: MANTA 42, before Morgan 41 Classic, GibSea 106
Posts: 91
So, what kind of cat are you buying finally? Florida panther?
__________________
pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 12:17   #44
Registered User
 
Troutbridge's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the boat, wherever she is
Boat: Broadblue 385, called Troutbridge
Posts: 145
Send a message via Skype™ to Troutbridge
Multihull Seamanship by Gavin Lesueur ISBN 1 898660 31 X will answer most of your questions.
__________________
Cruising: Boat maintenance in different locations.
see the web diary:
http:/blog.mailasail.com/troutbridge
Troutbridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2008, 15:26   #45
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by little boat View Post
ias to no fatalities in a multihull this millenium, factor, if there had been children, non-swimmers or old people aboard; or if someone had knocked their head on the way into the drink (or if it was ice cold water) and if the sailboat hadn't seen them go over and sail right over to help; .
And if my aunty was a bloke she'd be my uncle.

I didnt say you cant die on board a multi - I just said I cant recall it happening lately
__________________

__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
capsize, multihull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Volvo Penta 740 DP Lack of Power AJL1275 Engines and Propulsion Systems 12 04-07-2010 09:12
Radio Etiquette and the lack thereof... Rangiroo Marine Electronics 62 03-01-2008 18:24
Recovering from a capsize... shadow Monohull Sailboats 31 21-12-2007 10:28
Capsize ratio lancercr Monohull Sailboats 37 08-02-2007 07:42
Forecasts: Northeast Due for Big Hurricane CaptainK Atlantic & the Caribbean 2 28-03-2006 05:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.