Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: Multi- or Mono-hull for circumnavigating
Monohull 50 35.46%
Multihull 91 64.54%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-04-2007, 04:02   #16
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by smm
I don't see any particular problem with multihulls at high latitudes:
Icecat - Excess Crew Project
Very interesting. Though they are definitely the exception rather than the rule. It seems like the Ice Cat was made with the trip to Antarctica in mind, so more of a purpose built cat than a cruiser.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smm
Most people find overnight coastal sailing far more stressful than passage making.
I completely agree. This is why it would be nice to have a sturdy cat that sails well. Do you have any idea how the F41 measure up to the FastCats?
__________________

__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 16:09   #17
smm
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Boat: Farrier F41 Catamaran - Endless Summer
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail2009
Do you have any idea how the F41 measure up to the FastCats?
There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of detail on their website, but the numbers they do give seem comparable. Fx the mast heights are about the same, they show a bit more sail area, but most of the difference seems to come from the genoa vs the blade jib on the F41.

No daggerboards, no rotating mast, and a fairly large, blocky house make me deeply sceptical that she'll do well to the windward. Their write-up on windward sailing is distinctly unimpressive.

When I see all the metal stuff bolted on to the boat (bimini, dingy davits, staunchions, bowbeam, chain plates, etc.) and the interior woodwork I get a little sceptical about their claimed 14,300 pound displacement.

The bridgedeck looks low and they've copied the awful Catana-style stairstep instead of going with a smooth flare. That's going to hurt windward performane in any sort of seaway. Noisy too.

So, roughly comparable to an F41 with keels. Obviously, some design and building details that I don't care for but the real differences for a round-the-world cruise might be quite small.

-Scott
__________________

__________________
smm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 17:16   #18
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
I spent 18 month in a mono in the Caribbean and the Mediterranean and crossed the Atlantic. We came to the conclusion that our next boat should be a multi for several reasons.

1. You spend a lot of time on the hook and mono's roll and ours also surfed at anchor quite a bit. With a multi you can get closer to the beach (swim to shore), shallower water (less scope and swinging), less wind closer to shore (less swinging, smaller waves), and typically less swells because you can tuck behind windward barriers. Even if this weren't true the two hull take the rolling out anyway. Sleeping well is important and became our number one issue with a big mono.

2. Tenders. We didn't have davits and it was a pain to stow and secure our dink. It took 45 minutes every time we wanted to launch or secure. Some mono's could accept a set of davit's but I've never seen a setup I liked on a boat the size your talking about. It's so easy to launch an dink on a cat. Yes it's harder to find room against the quay in a cat but it's so much easier to launch your dink that I think it a fair trade off. My experience in the Aegean is that if you want to tie up to the quay you'd have to be in by 10:00 - 12:00 at the latest if you needed a double wide birth. If you came in late, you have to wait until the next morning but could then find a spot. I think all-in-all this is one of the more troublesome issues for a cat in the Med. Sometimes in certain places you cant find a birth for any boat and your options will be limited in a cat. We had difficulty finding berths Athens, Mikonos, Santorini, Palma de Mallorica, Turks and Cacaos, Grenada, Martha's Vineyard and several other locations.

But again, I think I'd be much happier in a poorly protected or even unprotected anchorage in a cat.

3. Gangplank - The cat's I've seen med moored seem to be able to back up right to the quay or very close. This seemed to make the whole experience a lot easier. On our boat we needed to be about 6-8 feet away from the quay. Either is was too shallow for the rudder or the winds would push us back 3-5 feet under load. Smaller gangplank, less weight, simpler setup and the ability to put two fenders on the stern of a cat make this much more civilized.

My only real concern about a cat is the ability to have it sail on autopilot through a rough storm. Not that it couldn't handle the weather but that it would require much better judgment and hand steering more frequently. For me to be able to sleep in bad wether I need to believe that the vessel won't exhibit any unsafe behaviors while on autopilot. Ok, let me say that another way. While my wife is on watch, I like to know that she can mange the boat singlehanded and not get into trouble.

On our maiden voyage in our mono we beat into a force 9 gale with 20 ft seas and we sailed flawlessly and safely on autopilot. Not so sure about a 40' cat and I'm not sure you can avoid something like that at some point in a circumnavigation.
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2007, 03:55   #19
cnj
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Riverside, RI USA
Boat: Fontain Pejot Tobago 35 Cat Alee
Posts: 67
We went through the same questions as you and bought a cat in August. We've done one trip from Florida to Rhode Island with no issues. My husband loved it that I could make coffee, coup, etc. during storms with no problems.
__________________
cnj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2007, 09:50   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Norway
Boat: Fountaine pajot, Belize 43
Posts: 140
Cat experience from Scandinavia

Hi Andreas,

I'm something as rare as a Noggie and just startet posting my views on this Forum.

I think you're correct in the reasoning behind boat selection! I have owned numerous mono's and enjoyed racing and also cruising them over the years! However after crewing by coincidence on a 36' cat when living in Austrailia I was converted. It was I belive something religeous about it! I saw the fantastic cruising opportunities after we had some horific weather during a race and we kept on sailing, together with the other cat and all the mono' had retired to the clubhouse, wet and miserable with a lot of damage to the boats and gear.

We shifted from Aussie to Sweden and the next boat had to be a cat. I purchased an Athena 38 in the Med and sailed it back to Sweden in two weeks. Everyone in the southern Spain area I spoke to said it could not possibly be done but we did it in two weeks exacly. And we were only two on board! We had everything from dead calm crossing the Bay of Biscay, with huge westerly swell to gale force northerly on the Atlantic coast of Spain and Portugal to full storm in the British Channel and into the German bight!

This boat handled all fantastic and we did only had damage to the gooseneck by my crew had two accidental gybes in succession!

I was so happy with the Athena that I now have just bought a Belize 43 from Fountaine Pajot. As for your requirements this fills it purfectly and I would recommend this as a yacht that would suit your budget just nice.

When it comes to choosing the ultimate yacht for a circumnavigation you would probably need to construct a "thing" that doesn't exist. All yachts have pros and cons regardless of what the various owners opinions.

One issue you have raised is the heating issue in northern waters. This is something I have a fair bit of experience with and to be honest a multi is not as easy to maintain nice and warm throughout as a mono. This is simply because a mono is, in reality one large space on a single level, while the cat consists of three differnt spaces at different level.

I have just installed a 5,5kW diesel heater that currently only supply the bridgedeck area and keeps this nice and warm. A better option is probably to install one heater in each hull that supply both hulls separately and the bridgedeck from both. This, is however more expensive and uses more electric power than the one bigger unit.

Insulation of the boat is related to the hatches and portholes. These are normally of through deck/hull aluminium, which is a very good heat conductor hence you will get a lot of condensation on these during wither when running the heating inside. I will try and custom make some for of insulating frames inside that can be removed for when the temperature increases above +5 Deg C.

When it comes to selecting the best cat I have a few of issues that I believe is the most important ones.
  1. Bridgedeck clearance - must be at least 6% of the boats waterline length. This avoid under bridgedeck slamming which would cause the boat to end up in trouble in really bad weather. I was sailing my Athena 38 in 40-45 knots of wing while a Norsman 43 gave up and crawled back in shelter, for this particular reason.
  2. Weight - should be as low as practicable possible taking in the minimum requirements you have. By this I mean that a light boat will be faster and not experience slamming as much as a heavier boat. Also it will be faster, which will mean less stress on the rigging, appearant wind goes down.
  3. The gally must be on the bridgedeck! - this is something I have found out from longer passages. Being in the hull preparing food means that the cook, if he's also on watch cannot see what's going on outside, he'll be cut off from the other crew in the saloon or cockpit, but last but not least, in heavy seas you don't want to be down below more than necessary if not sleeping.
  4. Sail handling - should be easy, you are on a cruise not a race - big difference. With the wide flat level sidedecks on a cat there's no need to have all halyards and reeflines to the cockpit. Leave them on the mast. This means only three functions in the cockpit; headsail and maisail sheets and the traveller sheet. The longer the traveller the better! This means that the sheet is keept reasonably tight with good mainsail control and ease of the only trimming of the main that is normally required, adjusting the traveller!
  5. Production boat - from a well known yard, remember one day, which you will not think is comming, might just do that, and you have to sell!
Conclusion bias as it may seem, get a second hand Belize 43 from a private ovener. Not as much wear and tear and generally well equipped.

My , probably more than two bobs, for now. Interesting debate this. I will follow the discussion.

PS, I'm chartering my boat and if you are interested in a sail we can work something out.

Happy lead free sailin
__________________
Lucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 03:55   #21
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity
1. You spend a lot of time on the hook and mono's roll and ours also surfed at anchor quite a bit. With a multi you can get closer to the beach (swim to shore), shallower water (less scope and swinging), less wind closer to shore (less swinging, smaller waves), and typically less swells because you can tuck behind windward barriers. Even if this weren't true the two hull take the rolling out anyway. Sleeping well is important and became our number one issue with a big mono.
Since I'm planning to anchor as often as possible this is definitely one of the reasons why I'm very attracted catamarans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity
2. It's so easy to launch a dink on a cat. Yes it's harder to find room against the quay for a cat but it's so much easier to launch your dink that I think it a fair trade off.
Again, this suits the style of cruising I wish to do. It would be a major hassle to spend 45 minutes to raise and lower the dinghy, because you can bet the day you don't someone will steal it ... In terms of spending a lot of time anchoring it's very nice to have a set-up that allows for easy launching of the dinghy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity
My experience in the Aegean is that if you want to tie up to the quay you'd have to be in by 10:00 - 12:00 at the latest if you needed a double wide birth.
I spent a year sailing in the Med. and the saying "if you snooze you loose" was underlined, time and time again, when looking for a spot on the quay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity
3. Gangplank - The cat's I've seen med moored seem to be able to back up right to the quay or very close. This seemed to make the whole experience a lot easier.
I was also on a mono when I cruised the Med. and encountered similar problems that you had. Having said that I hope to avoid gangplanks as much as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity
My only real concern about a cat is the ability to have it sail on autopilot through a rough storm.
I agree. This may seem like a stupid question, but are windvanes completely out the question with catamarans?
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 04:02   #22
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnj
We went through the same questions as you and bought a cat in August. We've done one trip from Florida to Rhode Island with no issues. My husband loved it that I could make coffee, coup, etc. during storms with no problems.
To a monohull sailor making coffee in a storm sounds tough at best, but I know it's no magical feat on a cat. Needless to say the prospect excites me ... well, I'll try to avoid the storm, but you know what I mean
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2007, 04:33   #23
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
I'm something as rare as a Noggie and just startet posting my views on this Forum.
It's always nice to meet fellow Noskies, whether that be in an exotic anchorage or on a sailing forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
I purchased an Athena 38 in the Med and sailed it back to Sweden in two weeks.
Did you fly with it? It was actually an Athena 38 that opened my eyes to catamarans. I had chartered a monohull and when the fuel filter clogged, the charter company sailed out on an Athena to fix it (there were no tools or replacement filters on the boat I chartered). While they changed the filter I took a look onboard the Athena. I was amazed to say the least. Since then I've been working like crazy to find the "right" catamaran for my circumnavigation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Everyone in the southern Spain area I spoke to said it could not possibly be done but we did it in two weeks exacly. And we were only two on board! We had everything from dead calm crossing the Bay of Biscay, with huge westerly swell to gale force northerly on the Atlantic coast of Spain and Portugal to full storm in the British Channel and into the German bight!
That would have been a hard test for any boat, mono or multi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
This boat handled all fantastic and we did only had damage to the gooseneck by my crew had two accidental gybes in succession!
This is interesting to read, because I've read complaints about the FP's being flimsy in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
I was so happy with the Athena that I now have just bought a Belize 43 from Fountaine Pajot. As for your requirements this fills it purfectly and I would recommend this as a yacht that would suit your budget just nice.
I would actually be lucky to find a 43 that I can modify with the extras I need (watermaker, heater, etc) and stay within budget.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
To be honest a multi is not as easy to maintain nice and warm throughout as a mono. This is simply because a mono is, in reality one large space on a single level, while the cat consists of three differnt spaces at different level.
Depending on which itinerary I plan for, I'll look at this in more detail later. I definitely see your point though and agree that 2 heaters are probably the way to go. I'll also look at diesel heaters like Dickinson, to see if they are feasible. With them there is no drain on the batteries, but I'm not sure if they have a high enough effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Bridgedeck clearance - must be at least 6% of the boats waterline length.
There are a lot of cats with low clearance, so I'm keeping a close eye on this. The trade-off is usually more windage, but I think it's worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Weight - should be as low as practicable possible taking in the minimum requirements you have.
This is the problem when you go circumnavigating. Even when you're very careful you end up putting on more gear than the builders had in mind for normal cruising or chartering. This is the big challenge with all cats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
The gally must be on the bridgedeck!
I agree. One complaint I have with the Athena is that there is not a lot of storage in the galley, so you need to store things elsewhere in the boat. This is usually avoided in a "down" galley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Production boat - from a well known yard, remember one day, which you will not think is comming, might just do that, and you have to sell!
A good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
PS, I'm chartering my boat and if you are interested in a sail we can work something out.
That sounds excellent. I'm in China right now, but I'm returning to Norway in the fall to sell my house, so then we can talk more about it.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2007, 11:50   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
Regarding heating, all modern production cats have about 1" foam core decks which reduces heat loss, here in Maryland each winter gets down to the single digits (F), and the bigger loss of heat on a cat is probably from the large windows. But simply put, you can keep warm on a catamaran down to around 10 degrees with oil filled radiators, and then below that you'll want two webasto heaters one in each hull which will keep it nice an toasty.

As to weight, most weight on boats is from water and fuel. Doing a 3000 mile transpacific a cat needed to run it's engines only 11 hours, the only monohull which matched their time motor sailed around 120 hours. So you don't need as much fuel on a cat as a mono. Regarding water, a transpacific circumnavigator 42+ ft should be carrying enough water for you and your crew without issue. I would get a water maker though so you can take showers every day.
__________________
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2007, 22:11   #25
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog
Regarding heating, all modern production cats have about 1" foam core decks which reduces heat loss, here in Maryland each winter gets down to the single digits (F), and the bigger loss of heat on a cat is probably from the large windows. But simply put, you can keep warm on a catamaran down to around 10 degrees with oil filled radiators, and then below that you'll want two webasto heaters one in each hull which will keep it nice an toasty.
I assume you only use the oil filled radiators when you're tied up somewhere. The webastos would do the trick though, they have kept me warm on many a winter night on land when I was in the military.
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog
As to weight, most weight on boats is from water and fuel. Doing a 3000 mile transpacific a cat needed to run it's engines only 11 hours, the only monohull which matched their time motor sailed around 120 hours. So you don't need as much fuel on a cat as a mono. Regarding water, a transpacific circumnavigator 42+ ft should be carrying enough water for you and your crew without issue. I would get a water maker though so you can take showers every day.
Which brand of cat was this?
A watermaker is one of the few "frills" items you'll find on my list of things I want.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2007, 23:59   #26
Registered User
 
gordolphin's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Hawai'i
Boat: Cal 20- Pualani
Posts: 7
CAT

After going to the Miami Int'l Boat Show and looking at all the new monos & multis at Strictly Sail, the Manta 42Mk IV is my choice. Hands down, Dan Even has created a well thought out boat for shorthanders. Self-tacking jib, reefing from the helm, more details than I care to mention. Best headroom I found in most boats and the one I saw was the tightest built belle of the ball.
__________________
~ (| ~~
\/---\/
~~ ~~ Aloha, g~
~~~

21 17.16N / 157 50.28W
gordolphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-04-2007, 05:26   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail2009
I assume you only use the oil filled radiators when you're tied up somewhere. The webastos would do the trick though, they have kept me warm on many a winter night on land when I was in the military.


Which brand of cat was this?
A watermaker is one of the few "frills" items you'll find on my list of things I want.

Correct Oil filled radiators when tied, webastos when under way and when the temp drops well below freezing.

BW sailing had an article this year, really good actually, on a transpacific crossing of 30+ boats together. There were two catanas that basically sailed the entire way and were the first to finish the 3000 mile journey.
__________________
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-04-2007, 09:25   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Eastern Australia
Boat: Catana 40 1988
Posts: 34
Cats have a big advantage for tradewind sailing: you can actually move around on them most of the time .... i.e. you can get on with life. On a mono-hull I'm usually wedged into a comfortable space with a book ... most other activities are best left until I get into harbour.

On the other hand .... If I was sailing in the English Channel, or anywhere else that required windward capability, it's hard to beat a good monohull .... although I willing to give a Outremer or racing Trimaran a go!

Another thing to think about : If you go for a fast cat you should be more worried about hitting logs and other debris in the water. There's some big stuff out there. It wouldn't deter me though.

It is a lot easier to look after a monohull. The cats have a huge surface area to keep clean, although the keels are easier to reach snorkeling.

If you do choose a cat ..... do go sailing on them before you buy. They differ in their sailing ability considerably. Anything will go down wind. Some won't go upwind at all, others make excessive leeway even though they seem to be pointing well, and others sail like docks whatever direction you sail them in.

Cheers
__________________
venturing seagull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 22:35   #29
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog
BW sailing had an article this year, really good actually, on a transpacific crossing of 30+ boats together. There were two catanas that basically sailed the entire way and were the first to finish the 3000 mile journey.
Catanas are speed demons, there's no doubt about that and their light-airs performance is very good. A friend of mine talked to a New Zealand surveyor who was less than impressed with their build though. Sailing to NZ had taken its toll on the hull and the owner ended up with quite a bill to get the cat back in shape.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2007, 22:51   #30
Registered User
 
Stella Polaris's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Stavanger
Boat: Ovni 445
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by venturing seagull
Cats have a big advantage for tradewind sailing: you can actually move around on them most of the time .... i.e. you can get on with life. On a mono-hull I'm usually wedged into a comfortable space with a book ... most other activities are best left until I get into harbour.
These are precisely the reasons why I want to make the move from mono to multi for the circumnavigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by venturing seagull
On the other hand .... If I was sailing in the English Channel, or anywhere else that required windward capability, it's hard to beat a good monohull .... although I willing to give a Outremer or racing Trimaran a go!
I like the Outremer ... It's theoretically within my budget range, if I'm a bit lucky. I have no doubt that it will be great to sail it, but I wonder how it is to live on for 3+ years. My girlfriend's initial reaction was that the galley seemed small, with little room for storage. ... Bah, women! Always thinking practical!

Quote:
Originally Posted by venturing seagull
If you do choose a cat ..... do go sailing on them before you buy. They differ in their sailing ability considerably. Anything will go down wind. Some won't go upwind at all, others make excessive leeway even though they seem to be pointing well, and others sail like docks whatever direction you sail them in.
Definitely. I'll be sailing all the catamarans I short-list. Like you say: It's the only way to know.
__________________

__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our blog
Stella Polaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
circumnavigation

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Opinions on Cruising Sailboat? leesureman Monohull Sailboats 32 05-07-2009 19:23



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.