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Old 18-06-2011, 17:25   #61
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
as i do not need a new mast-- both are fine
But they still cost money initially didn't they, its not as if they just grew from the deck when it got wet.
If they both fell off now, what figure would you put on cost or replacement and all fittings associated with?

,
Quote:
and i do not buy new sails or anything new if i can help it
Well they would have been new at some stage.
Quote:
my formosa DOES sail in 5 KTS--NOT FAST, BUT MORE THAN 3 KTS....so dont pan my brick until ye have sailed one. she is PERFECT cruiser.
You must win lots of races
Sails well in 60knots and sails well in 5 as well
God knows why people spend all that money on carbon fibre race machines when they could just buy a formosa.

I am not panning your vessel,she is a lovely looking boat, but I feel that perhaps you exaggerate your vessels abilities if you suggest you have no need to motor and can perform well through ALL wind ranges.

Most times I have cruised anywhere, cruising monos whith all the gear on board tend to motor everywhere when the breeze is under 10 knots, it is only the performance vessel, mono or multi, that is actually sailing.

Quote:
my engine only uses .8 gal per hour at 2800 rpm and makes 7 kts..LOL
3 litres an hour for 7 knots?
Seems many of these vessels have a 77hp perkins in them
That being the case my 65hp cummins should be giving me similar economy for similar speed, cool.
I thought it would use more than that
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Old 18-06-2011, 17:26   #62
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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40-50 foot Sailing vessels have motors around the same size of mine (2 x 65hp)
Not quite. 2 x 27hp
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Old 18-06-2011, 17:28   #63
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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perhaps you exaggerate your vessels abilities
seems to be an epidemic
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Old 18-06-2011, 17:39   #64
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Not quite. 2 x 27hp
Different vessels different size
I sailed with a perry 43 cat, it had yanmar 75's
I have sailed on a Roberts mono that had I think 100hp bmw
I have sailed on a 45 ft supershockwave cat that had a single 27 ish hp Lombardini on sonic drive.

I followed a 42 ft Scionning Prowler powercat up the QLD coast that had 55hp x 2, very economical vessel, a real eye opener and game changer.

A quick look through boatpoint shows

50 ft Roberts with 125 hp
50 ft Benny with 100hp
50ft sailing cat 2 x 75hp
50ft Crowther cat 2 x 50hp
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Old 18-06-2011, 17:40   #65
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

Differnet cruising scenarios will result in different answers I think.

There was an article in one of the sailing magazines not too long ago about a guy who circumnavigated in a custom power cat. He chose a power cat over a sailing cat because he figured the cost of rigging and sails was more than the increased cost of fuel he we consume.

However, when one is shopping for boats, much will have to do with price you can find a boat you are happy with.

I'm constantly amazed that when looking at Catamarans that there are many, many used 3-4 cabin sailing cats in the US$80-150K price range, (or even less) but there are almost no 3-4 cabin power cats in that price range.

So, if a used cat is what I want to cruise in, a sailing cat will be cheaper overall, simply because that's what's available at a lower price. (unless there is some dramatic insurance cost difference or something like that I'm missing.)
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Old 18-06-2011, 18:08   #66
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Originally Posted by nautical62 View Post
There was an article in one of the sailing magazines not too long ago about a guy who circumnavigated in a custom power cat. He chose a power cat over a sailing cat because he figured the cost of rigging and sails was more than the increased cost of fuel he we consume.
I'm sure someone will pull out their 30 ft mono bought at receivers auction with second hand sails, bucket for a dunny, box of baked beans for food and a sail bag for a bed to totally disprove your claim

This came through Brisbane the other day, nary a drop of diesel used in a global circumnavigation

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Old 18-06-2011, 18:16   #67
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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What are you rating the damage on? Money? Seeing the difference in electronics on your average trawler to a sailboat, how could there be that much difference? What else get's damaged? A side note to that would be the electronics for the motor getting zapped. On a trawler, you would be dead in the water after that strike if your modern electronically controlled diesel took the spike.
Apparently, and I am not an expert, it is the relative width of a cat that increase their strike potential. The higher damage is apparently due to cats not having a direct route from the mast to the waters surface. This causes the potential the energy to be dispersed thru the hulls along the water line so not only are the electronics zapped the hulls can be damaged too.

It is apparently the waters surface you need to ground to and not depth. The site I referenced recommended putting a plate a few inches off the water with heavy cables attached directly to the mast. You would the raise the plate during passages and drop it at anchor.

The stats did not say if the trawlers were steel hulled but that would make sense.

So power cats would probably fall somewhere in between trawlers and sailing cats because they are still wide but don't have a 70ft lightning rod.

Has any power guys used or looked into kites?
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Old 18-06-2011, 18:38   #68
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Has any power guys used or looked into kites?
I looked into it
They aren't working that well yet and the cost quoted (approx $20k) buys a lot of fuel if using around 1 L/nm
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Old 18-06-2011, 19:23   #69
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Originally Posted by Double Z View Post
Here's the dash of a Nordy 40. I don't know how many sailboats are running thi$ much money in gadgets.
And I dont know many powerboats that do either
I must hang out with the wrong people, or maybe not

Quote:
I know to people who had their powerboats get zapped by near strikes. They lost everything including the engine electronics. That would be a bad thing 1,500 miles offshore. I'm pretty sure that's outside Vessel Assist's range....
I have been hit by lightening before on my sailing cat
I lost the outboard as it was in the water at the time and thats what the current went through.
I also lost all electronics
and I was also suspect about getting home with the sails as the rig and wire had had how many millions of volts go though it?
Insurance replaced the lot, rigging wire included

As for engine electronics
Its part of the reason I went for bog standard naturally aspirated, zero electronics, motors.
Engine controls are Hydraulic, not electric, for the same reasoning.
Water and electricity dont mix
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Old 18-06-2011, 19:54   #70
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Depends where you are
I posted a link earlier for the fuel barge in Langkawi, diesel is 0.70c aud (.45p) per litre.

It also depends on what sort of vessel you choose to sail and live aboard
Sure, I could use a J24 as a sailing example and yes, the rig and sails would be cheap, but that is not realistic.



1000 = $1527aud = 2181 litres of diesel = 2100 nm of motoring , hopefully , for my vessel.

Thats about 6 mths worth, possibly a year, if only travelling to the next island and staying for a week.
Although I like sailing, I must agree with you.
Only labour I have spent in $150k (so far )refit was for a rigger - 87ft up. + $4500 for the lower, and bowsprit shrouds...Martingdale and uppers will be far more...
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Old 18-06-2011, 20:06   #71
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

cat-- my boat came already built so that(price of masts) is moot. i am not stupid enough to make a new boat when there are also very many out there to be recycled and suit my needs and wants. so i paid 10k for entire boat and all electronix included and i havent had to spend more than 5k to make her sailable--and i am cruising.
where i am currently, there are 153 boats for sale-and folks wonder why there are so few slips to be had.. because folks cant use that which is already built. and abandon the stuff they had built once they get out and find what is involved in the act/lifestyle of cruising. mine is fairly simple so many things folks HAVE to have for their personal cruising i donot have--by choice. it wont break boat because it isnt there,,when my boat was built, masts were a whole lot less money to have built-- mine are spruce. aluminum ones then were le fiell and were 5000 us dollars..LOL
if you dont like the costs involved with your particular thing, dont decide others must have paid exactly what you are -- is not an option. mine was built and not pricey. i was intelligent in my purchase.
i also bought and installed my perkins 4-108 -- paid 2500us dollars for it and 3 loaves of bread was the installation fee. LOL. do not ASSume that everyones' stuff costs as much as does yours. it didnt and doesnt.
smooth sailing.
enjoy your boat--i AM enjoying mine.
as for lightning strikes--they are not as common as you believe. i sailed a near year thru lightning storms on someone elses sailboat--he decided to do that-- and we never got hit..LOL....and the only boats i know that were hit were lightning protected.....
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Old 18-06-2011, 20:52   #72
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
cat-- my boat came already built so that(price of masts) is moot. i am not stupid enough to make a new boat when there are also very many out there to be recycled and suit my needs and wants.
Good for you
Where I am that is not the case.
There are very few light low powered power cats available and have had mono's before and I am not stupid enough to jump into something else that I would not have been happy with

Quote:
if you dont like the costs involved with your particular thing, dont decide others must have paid exactly what you are
I have done no such thing
I have always said compare like for like, so, for me, it was comparing a 50 foot performance cat and expensive sails to a 50 foot cat, same size and layout, without.
Other sailors here should be comparing their vessels to the equivelant, sans mast
Not there cheap boat, with the largest gas guzzling beast they can imagine.

Quote:
mine was built and not pricey. i was intelligent in my purchase.
Mine will be cheap in comparison to those available for sale, which are very few and far between.
I was intelligent in my decision as I did not accept second best or something that I would not be happy with
Quote:
i also bought and installed my perkins 4-108 -- paid 2500us dollars for it and 3 loaves of bread was the installation fee.
Wonderfull
I was not prepared to accept second best as a primary source of propulsion
I did have the opportunity for some second hand isuzus, but I feel that they would have "cost" me in the long run.

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LOL. do not ASSume that everyones' stuff costs as much as does yours. it didnt and doesnt.
Once again, where did I say that?
You ASSume that I did, but you are incorrect

The numbers I used are for my vessel, sailing version and a non sailing version.
I could have deluded myself by comparing a brand new 50 ft cat to a second hand mono, but thats pretty pointless exercise dont you think?
Especially as mono's are an unsuitable vessel for what I need. (stability, Shallow draft, REAL Kingsize bed, abundance of shade)


Quote:
enjoy your boat--i AM enjoying mine.
Thats great
I wish I could enjoy a mono, my choices would be near unlimited as there are so many wanting out, but having had 2 before and once again having sailed on one a couple of weeks ago, I' afraid I could not accept one, nor would my wife as they are totally unsuitable for our needs.
Quote:
as for lightning strikes--they are not as common as you believe.
Perhaps you can point to where I said lightning strikes were common?
I said I was struck, once, did you read common into that?
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Old 18-06-2011, 22:33   #73
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

Cheapest boat to run is a rowboat.

After dismissing that due to limited range and creature comforts, it comes down to what you enjoy as much as what you want to spend.

I can't think of a cheap, big & fast (20kts+) motor boat. I suppose most "it costs the same" statements assume boats will all travel at modest speeds.
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Old 19-06-2011, 02:56   #74
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
as i do not need a new mast-- both are fine, and i do not buy new sails or anything new if i can help it. my formosa DOES sail in 5 KTS--NOT FAST, BUT MORE THAN 3 KTS....so dont pan my brick until ye have sailed one. she is PERFECT cruiser.

my engine only uses .8 gal per hour at 2800 rpm and makes 7 kts..LOL

"LOL" That was my reaction too.....
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Old 19-06-2011, 03:14   #75
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Re: Motor boat versus sail boat

This is really a pointless discussion.

I bought a sailing boat because I got bored sh!tless wizzing around in a motor boat. I get to the destination quickly and then what???? I also hate the constant droning of the engine and would rather sail closehauled than motor straight to the destination.

A motor boat is not for me and I don't care about the comparitive costs and I know I am not alone.

On the otherhand I know that some/many people like the quietness of sailing but hate spilling their chardoney. They buy a sailing cat and don't give a sh!t about the comparitive costs.

Then there are people who are not interested in messing around with sails and want to take the shortest possible course to their destination. They buy a motor boat and don't give a sh!t about the comparitive costs.

Personally I think anyone tossing up between motor and sail on the basis of comparative cost should seriously consider buying a seaside condo as it will be cheaper again and appreciate in value over time unlike most boats.

This thread is like a group of guys standing at the urinal and observing te competition.
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