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Old 15-06-2018, 03:32   #46
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Only 7 knots upwind!? Must have been trimmed wrong! 🤣

I remember the first time I sailed a Corsair. Winds were no more than 5 kts and we were doing at least the same on most points of sail...amazing light air boats. The first time we tacked with me at the helm, I did a full 360 chasing the apparent wind...very different than sailing a cruising cat.

High performance boats are great, and I do own one, but if I were to take it cruising, I would be solo...same for a Corsair...great boats to race, but to cruise...not so much.
My wife and I took our C36 from the Chesapeake to Martha's Vineyard and back in 2016. The boat is just a dream to sail, often matching wind speed or more, but after that trip we both knew that if we are to do any cruising (as in snowbirds up and down the east coast when we retire in a couple of years) it will have to be in a cat, which is the only reason we're selling her. The low freeboard was a bit scary for her with following seas taller than her (!), and as we've gotten older (mid 50/60s) the creature comforts are like a siren's song! But it's more like pleasant camping aboard the C36 - enclosed head/shower, stove and sink, forward v-berth and queen aft cabin. BUT, we got a bit tired of climbing up and down into the berth!

That said, I'll always miss the performance of my last 3 - Corsair 36, F-31 and Condor 40. Nothing will ever match that performance!

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Old 15-06-2018, 04:45   #47
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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My wife and I took our C36 from the Chesapeake to Martha's Vineyard and back in 2016. The boat is just a dream to sail, often matching wind speed or more, but after that trip we both knew that if we are to do any cruising (as in snowbirds up and down the east coast when we retire in a couple of years) it will have to be in a cat, which is the only reason we're selling her. The low freeboard was a bit scary for her with following seas taller than her (!), and as we've gotten older (mid 50/60s) the creature comforts are like a siren's song! But it's more like pleasant camping aboard the C36 - enclosed head/shower, stove and sink, forward v-berth and queen aft cabin. BUT, we got a bit tired of climbing up and down into the berth!

That said, I'll always miss the performance of my last 3 - Corsair 36, F-31 and Condor 40. Nothing will ever match that performance!

Best regards,
Boats, and life, are compromises.

My Hobie 33 is a blast to sail, but not a viable cruising boat. My Wildcat 35 sails acceptably well for a small cruising boat (paced an FP Belize 43 recently!), but is definately built and outfitted more for comfort than for speed. Not only does my wife enjoy cruising on it, but we can have 4-5 guests aboard quite comfortably too.
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Old 15-06-2018, 08:29   #48
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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I remember going to the Miami boat show back in the early 90ís....got a ride on a beautiful Privelege Cat.. I stepped aboard...wow...my hair was on fire. The wind was about 10 knots. We had about 8 spectators on board. Sails went up and we were doing 2 knots....if that... Next ride was on a Corsair 27 trimaran. I believe the owner was a Paul Aguilar....maybe??? Still 10 knots of breeze with us doing 7 upwind...and 12 knots on a reach.....I was hooked!

I will take performance with basic amenities every time. Obviously not all want the pleasure of real sailing and prefer a compromise
A guy in a Nacra would be doing circles around you and another one kite-surfing would be flying over both of you.......................................:banghea d:

Can't compare a Corsair 27 with a CRUISING catamaran, it's like comparing a Mini and a Cadillac. The Mini is very fast and agile, perfect for every day rush hour traffic, but for a long trip I'd prefer to have a Caddy.

Don't get me wrong, I started sailing in a Hobbie 14, did a lot of racing in a Hobbie 16 and a Nacra 17, so I really LOVE fast sailboats, but only for a few hours, a couple of days max. Can't imagine what a two or three week passage would be on a fast 27' trimaran, but guess it must be really exhausting.
I'd rather arrive a little later , but in good shape.

Fair winds

Mariano
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Old 15-06-2018, 15:29   #49
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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A guy in a Nacra would be doing circles around you and another one kite-surfing would be flying over both of you.......................................:banghea d:

Can't compare a Corsair 27 with a CRUISING catamaran, it's like comparing a Mini and a Cadillac. The Mini is very fast and agile, perfect for every day rush hour traffic, but for a long trip I'd prefer to have a Caddy.

Don't get me wrong, I started sailing in a Hobbie 14, did a lot of racing in a Hobbie 16 and a Nacra 17, so I really LOVE fast sailboats, but only for a few hours, a couple of days max. Can't imagine what a two or three week passage would be on a fast 27' trimaran, but guess it must be really exhausting.
I'd rather arrive a little later , but in good shape.

Fair winds

Mariano
Ive done overnight legs on an F31, in moderately ruff conditions, and it was indeed exhausting...impossible to sleep off watch, hard to even stay in one spot in a bunk for more than a few moments. Upside is that it will be over much quicker! Very wet ride too.
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Old 15-06-2018, 17:03   #50
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

CatSketcher has put it perfectly... depends on what you want from your boat--if you want lots of room and load carrying ability in 38' then your performance is not going to be great. If you want great sailing to windward then you just can't carry as much stuff.

While designers do know how to design great sailing cats--the pressure to meet the demands of the charter market mean compromises are made, so horses for courses...


My criteria for a proper offshore boat is that it can sail to windward off a lee shore in tough conditions. When I launched my boat I took her out in 35 knots and 4-5m seas and beat into it. Not pleasant but we sat on 8 knots just fine. I suspect that many boats (cats and monos) would fail this test. However if you are always sailing in protected areas, maybe this criteria is not necessary.
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Old 15-06-2018, 18:04   #51
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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My criteria for a proper offshore boat is that it can sail to windward off a lee shore in tough conditions.
I used to consider that a requirement but as I've learnt more about risk management I've modified my personal comfort level to being able to get off a lee shore in snotty weather with any 2 of the following 3: port engine, stbd engine or sails.

Using a risk approach, that allows for a double failure:
Failure 1. Being in that position in the first place is a failure of forecasting, planning, navigation, ...
Failure 2. Now that I'm in that position in a catamaran, and I want to be able to have a second failure, one engine or the sails and still be able to stay clear. I recognise that this assumes that failures of port and stbd engines are independent events which is not the case in some fuel tank setups and circumstances.

Personally I think the ability to sail off a lee shore was much more important when forecasting was much less accurate and engines were much less reliable or weren't powerful enough to do anything but get you in and out of port. Interestingly for much of the history of sail, this was not a capability they actually had.
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Old 15-06-2018, 18:43   #52
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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Interestingly for much of the history of sail, this was not a capability they actually had.
And a hell of a lot of ships were lost on lee shores...

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Old 15-06-2018, 20:18   #53
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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And a hell of a lot of ships were lost on lee shores...

Jim
Absolutely. Hence the well deserved notoriety of places like the Bay of Biscay.
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Old 15-06-2018, 22:38   #54
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

And the west coast of Vancouver Island - Graveyard of the Pacific. A westerly gale and and outgoing tide and ships that missed the Straight of Juan de Fuca by being too far north had no fun at all.

Sailing off a lee shore is an admirable characteristic of a sailing yacht, but not generally a deal breaker for modern cruising in low latitudes. Most boats motor sail perfectly well if not comfortably and thatís enough to get out of a lousy anchorage when the weather turns.
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Old 16-06-2018, 05:33   #55
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

I didn't real all the responses but someone should point out to you Scarlet that most people who say its the motion of the ocean that counts have small "boats".

This is a video of Palarran on a beam reach - very smooth IMO for the conditions. We are about 3000 pounds heavy, mostly in the stern. If that weight were removed or moved foreward, the ride would be that much better.



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Probably a combination of being on a relatively small cat in particularly awkward sea conditions. But the reality of most catamarans is that they sail on top of the water rather than in the water, so they do bounce and jerk. Usually not so much that you canít stand as you describe though.

You were already relatively slow so Iím not sure reefing would have helped, in fact more power helps to press the leeward hull down and steady things. But certainly changing your angle to the waves would ease the movement (most of the videos youíve seen are running downwind - reaching and upwind are more like your experience). But of course if that takes you off your course to your destination that doesnít really help.

Was the boat lightly loaded? Full tanks and a bit of weight can help to steady the motion.

Longer cats and heavier cats are less susceptible in mild conditions like you describe. Many of the catamaran YTíers are on 44+ foot cats.
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Old 16-06-2018, 14:38   #56
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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Originally Posted by Morph View Post


My criteria for a proper offshore boat is that it can sail to windward off a lee shore in tough conditions. When I launched my boat I took her out in 35 knots and 4-5m seas and beat into it. Not pleasant but we sat on 8 knots just fine. I suspect that many boats (cats and monos) would fail this test. However if you are always sailing in protected areas, maybe this criteria is not necessary.
Wouldn't this be an even more important criteria for a coastal boat?
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Old 17-06-2018, 04:20   #57
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

too true--especially on the NSW coast
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Old 17-06-2018, 08:36   #58
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

Well, I don't know that I've ever seen a broken bridgedeck on a cat. So maybe it's a moot point. Overturned cats? Yep. My old Lagoon was built with huge radii at the hull to bridgedeck joint. Probably a 1 ft to 1.5 ft radius. A large radius distributes load. Some modern cats are nearly a sharp corner,... bad design.
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Old 17-06-2018, 08:37   #59
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

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Wouldn't this be an even more important criteria for a coastal boat?
That was my thought.
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Old 18-06-2018, 11:56   #60
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Re: Motion In The Ocean...

BigBeakie has it exactly right. A 38' Lagoon is a heavy boat even with empty tanks, and filling up with water and fuel makes it even heavier. These boats are built for accommodation, not performance. It is endemic for cats to have a corkscrew motion upwind in a short chop, and a cruising cat with low under-bridge clearance will pound at speed in a seaway when the two bow waves converge underneath. I find the best way to make upwind progress is to run the lee side motor at low rpms to help with leeway and speed. Many cruisers strap the main in tight (or furl it) and motor straight upwind if they have to get to weather. Experienced cruisers usually await more favorable conditions.
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