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View Poll Results: Do you prefer mono- or multihull sailboats for cruising?
Monohull 138 36.70%
Multihull 238 63.30%
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:44   #436
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Originally Posted by rexposeidon View Post
First I have to agree with GMac. Second, you should have rigged your boat for heavy seas, nothing rattles when properly rigged. Third, I'd suggest you've never sortied a ship into a hurricane either. Since I have, ... I need to say nothing more to you.
What are you talking about? That wasn't a very nice post.

When you live aboard a boat, and you are at anchor, you tend to take pots out to cook and stuff, don't you?

You have a cup out to drink from, right?

You take tools out to do repairs, right?

You do sleep, don't you?

Well, everything 44'CruisingCat said is right on the money, and anyone who has ever been at anchor in a rolly anchorage knows that.

When you are all set up nice and snug, working on this or that, and the anchorage becomes rolly or even worse - a large displacement power vessel flies by off the beam, your stuff flies EVERYWHERE. If you are asleep, you are thrown from side to side to side to side...for what seems like an eternity if it's a power boat, or for what *is* an eternity if you are trying to sleep in a rolly anchorage.

I just can't see how one could even say this doesn't happen or that somehow, 44'Cruisingcat wasn't better "prepared" for it. How the hell do you prepare for living at anchor in discomfort? Uh oh... maybe this was a troll type post. Oh well, I just fell for it. ha ha

And unlike a mother's arms rocking you to sleep, if you've really actually lived at anchor through this kind of condition, it's more like a really drunk stepfather who you don't like much, wrecking up the place.
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Old 02-05-2008, 06:25   #437
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:15   #438
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Going into irons when tacking

"you can't tack our boats under main alone. You need the jib up as well. I stalled and flailed about, just like they said in the article." This was described and discussed in Kanter's 'Cruising Catamaran Communique." An excess of weather helm can keep a cat from falling off, if the mainsail is too far aft, apparently. Otherwise, catamarans seem pretty insensitive to where the sails are placed relative to the underbody (lead, the relationship of CE and LCR.)
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:03   #439
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This was described and discussed in Kanter's 'Cruising Catamaran Communique." An excess of weather helm can keep a cat from falling off, if the mainsail is too far aft, apparently. Otherwise, catamarans seem pretty insensitive to where the sails are placed relative to the underbody (lead, the relationship of CE and LCR.)
I think this has more to do with our hull design. Catalacs are an older British boat design. Heavy, sollid glass, Deep "V" hulls with a hard chine and moderate rocker. While it's true that their design was guided by safety rather than performance, just about all 600 boats are still around and commanding a decent price in the marketplace these days..

I do run into Mr. Kanter from time to time as he lives in Florida still stays pretty active. I have a couple of articles he wrote on Catalacs on my web site. He speaks very favorably of the boats.

(an excerpt from the book)

Cruising Catamaran Communiqué
by Charles Kanter

"Catalac catamarans, with over 600 units built and sailing, have probably brought as many hours of happy, comfortable and safe boating to more people than any other vessel. It is hard to find any comparable production vessel that has so well achieved its design objectives. One that comes close is the monohull, Morgan Out Island series, the most popular cruising boat ever."

Incidently, I would highly recommend his book for folks considering a catamaran.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:31   #440
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Well, hard chine = more wetted surface = more resistance, and heavier weight relative to sail area = more resistance and less power to overcome it, so a sheer lack of horsepower relative to resistance would slow the boat down and so give less momentum to come about with. On the other hand, more weight = more momentum for a given speed. I don't think I have seen a drawing showing what's beneath the waterline in profile, so I'm not sure how much lead Catalacs have.
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Old 02-05-2008, 10:36   #441
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I don't think I have seen a drawing showing what's beneath the waterline in profile, so I'm not sure how much lead Catalacs have.
If you have the time, click on the link in my signature below and scroll down that page. There are photos of the boat on the hard and the hull lines are clear.

I think your suspicions are correct and comments appropriate as they do have a lot of wetted surface area.
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Old 02-05-2008, 13:34   #442
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I'd suggest you've never experience REAL rolling at anchor. When stuff gets thrown all over the boat, when the dishes and pots are rattling and clanking in the cupboards, when the boat is creaking and groaning like crazy, when you are nearly being thrown out of bed.....
Not a fizzboat wake as you suggest Sean. A fizzboat wake is a 1 -2 off sort of thing and happens, sure a Cat will be nicer to be anchored in most of the time. Look closely and you'll also see no-one said
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this doesn't happen or that somehow, 44'Cruisingcat wasn't better "prepared" for it
There is a big difference between a wake and a "REAL rolly anchorage".

If you want to anchor in places that rolly you'll get thrown out of the bunk you may want to get a Cat. The other option is pick a better anchorage. I'd also suggest that if it's that rolly mono people are bouncing around inside their boat, those on Cat won't be sleeping well either.

Come on Sean, I do realise you're a 110% multi man and that's perfectly fine but there is a limit where ones enthusiasm must be tempered by common sense.

To me and others, common sense would suggest that if the anchorage is that bad you can't sleep why stay there, do something about it like move for example. There is always options or there should be. No matter what sort of boat you are on.

And just before you write me off as some twisted mono man, I'll let you into a secret, I'm currently working on a 50ft Cat. When on your travels and you see any anchorage with any boats rolling their guts out don't bother looking for me.
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Old 02-05-2008, 13:54   #443
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Quote:
"If you want to anchor in places that rolly you'll get thrown out of the bunk you may want to get a Cat. The other option is pick a better anchorage. "

Unfortunately we've all had nights when conditions changed after sunset so the pick a better anchorage option is not always obvious.
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Old 02-05-2008, 13:57   #444
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Originally Posted by GMac View Post
The post said
Not a fizzboat wake as you suggest Sean. A fizzboat wake is a 1 -2 off sort of thing and happens, sure a Cat will be nicer to be anchored in most of the time. Look closely and you'll also see no-one said

There is a big difference between a wake and a "REAL rolly anchorage".

If you want to anchor in places that rolly you'll get thrown out of the bunk you may want to get a Cat. The other option is pick a better anchorage. I'd also suggest that if it's that rolly mono people are bouncing around inside their boat, those on Cat won't be sleeping well either.

Come on Sean, I do realise you're a 110% multi man and that's perfectly fine but there is a limit where ones enthusiasm must be tempered by common sense.

To me and others, common sense would suggest that if the anchorage is that bad you can't sleep why stay there, do something about it like move for example. There is always options or there should be. No matter what sort of boat you are on.

And just before you write me off as some twisted mono man, I'll let you into a secret, I'm currently working on a 50ft Cat. When on your travels and you see any anchorage with any boats rolling their guts out don't bother looking for me.
Gmac:

I respect your opinions and posts and generally respect you as a person. So... I'm wondering what you're talking about here.

You're quoting 44'Crusing cat, then saying something about a fizzboat wake not counting. Ok... what does that mean? Does a powerboat's wake (happens every 5 mins or more frequently in some anchorages) not count as discomfort? Is that what you are saying when you say, "A fizzboat wake is a 1 -2 off sort of thing and happens?"

Under the same quote, you say, "nobody said:", and you proceed to list off the reference to where I was asking why that poster said the 44'Cruisingcat wasn't prepared. Well, he DID say that. He said, "Second, you should have rigged your boat for heavy seas, nothing rattles when properly rigged." What part of that sentence do you read as not digging into 44'Cruisingcat and telling him he's not prepared? Again, I do respect you and your posts, but am really failing to see what you are saying here. Can you expand on this?

For the record, I'm not even close to 110% multi. I only got one a couple months ago after living aboard a 45' mono *at anchor* and away from docks for years. Do you know my history when you say that? I'm maybe 60%/40%, with multi winning out, but still very much in the middle. I'm not pro multi at all.

And... lastly, you suggest I move if the anchorage is too rolly. Well, what if I have to go to work in the AM? How are you supposed to move your car, your job and your home when conditions get too rough?

Your post just isn't making much sense to me, although I do respect you and your opinions on this board. Could you please elaborate and let me know what you were trying to say? A lot of what you posted is kind of... speculative, at best, not really taking real life (or my personal history, views or opinions) into account, but going off on some type of imaginary character... one very different from me.
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Old 02-05-2008, 14:26   #445
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The worst anchorage I was at was because the winds clocked around and I went from being protected to being fully exposed to 2 ft chop. It happens when you spend a year out cruising around to different anchorages. This particular one we ended up being stuck because we had two dead outboards, one was simply so old it couldn't be revived because of corrosion build up, the other was dead because it's powerhead had shattered (evinrude 4 stroke that put the company out of business).
Still though, stayed in one place, was able to fix one outboard and replace the other by hauling the outboards in my dingy. Very simple setup with the PDQ 36. What other boat can you remove your engine in an hour, get it into dingy and bring it into town? Perfect boat for Caribbean island hopping.
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Old 02-05-2008, 14:44   #446
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I'm not going off at anyone in any form or at least trying not too. It's early and only one mug of the dark coffee beans fine liquid is rushing towards my veins. My post could have been more clearly done. 2 coffees down now so I'll try to clarify things a bit better.

All I'm trying to say is that 'generally' if an anchorage is that bad why go or stay there, that would include anchoring in a place where it's full of continual wakes. I didn't read any of the posts as saying one every 5 min. Being anchored any where and having a wake or 2 is common so that doesn't come into my calculations as anything to do with a rolly anchorage.

Also I didn't read the post as a digg at 44'Cruisingcat more just a general and quite true comment. I saw it as just an open non-directed comment but I suppose some could read it the other way a bit though.

I don't know all your history but wouldn't mind it does sound like it would be interesting. My 110% comment was just based on my perception from the strong enthusiasm that comes across in your posts along with your quick reactions to some comments made by others. So you are sort of right with the 'imaginary you' comment and I'd also say you'd fit the term 'charactor' very well, and that is meant in a good way by the way. The world needs more characters.

As for moving your car, work and so on in bad weather or very adverse conditions. I suppose it's an individuals choice but as an employer I'd prefer you did rather than arrive at work without sleep Personally if an anchorage became that bad I couldn't sleep I'd do something about it. I say 'became' as I wouldn't anchor in a such a awful spot in the first place.

I think part of the confusion is that I'm (is / was) looking at this from a cruising point of view and just realised from your last post you have more of a 'live aboard' angle in it. From a live aboard angle yes a multi would be superior if you had to park in a wobbly place and couldn't choose anchorages easily.

That better or do we need to wait for the 3rd coffee to kick in
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Old 02-05-2008, 16:14   #447
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ha ha... Now I'm getting it.

Thanks for the clarifications. Yes, I do come at it from the liveboard angle, and that probably explains my need for a boat that is a stellar performer - at anchor. I figure that's a good place to start, since when cruising you are at anchor over 90% of the time as well.

This has originally been one of my bigger concerns about a cat. I had posted several questions in the muli area of the forum about this. I was deeply concerned that in an anchorage with winds up to 40 knots and 6' (2 meter) chop, I would be uncomfortable in a smaller, lighter cat as opposed to a 13 ton, 45' mono. The consensus on the forum was that I'd be able to sneak in closer with the shallow draft. So far, I haven't been home yet with the new cat (on a 2000 mile delivery) and have yet to really try that out. I am still hoping that the cat will be comfortable when things get rough.

I mean... in my anchorage last summer, I had the above conditions several times, as well as the rolling that 44'Cruisingcat and I were talking about. It was a tough anchorage, but it was the right anchorage because there was:

*Parking
*WiFi
*Municipal Dock to land at
*Close drive to work
*Close to grocery, etc...
*Protected from most directions - no more than a couple miles open water
*Had enough depth for my mono to be able to anchor there
*Was far away from the "town" so nobody hassled me to move on for a couple months until they realized I was there

To be honest, there wasn't a better anchorage within 40 miles of there for that boat. So... in my personal situation, the 13 tons did a good job at keeping down most of the large chop and wakes (very frequent on weekends). However, the rolling was the one thing it didn't stop - at all. It amplified it.

Now, I'll be facing similar conditions (unless I can get the cat in closer somewhere shallow) in a boat that displaces 6 tons. Big difference. The rolling will be better though...

Nothing I'm talking about here is theory. It's all coming from living at anchor with a 45' mono and now delivering a 34' cat on a 2000 mile delivery, anchoring out each and every night. I only really go to docks for fuel and water.

Damn... rambling. ha ha.

Ok, so thanks for the clarifications. I didn't quite follow you, and now I do.

And I do realize I'm a character.... quite the weirdo. My writing also tends to be a bit passionate. No offense taken at all.



Quote:
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I'm not going off at anyone in any form or at least trying not too. It's early and only one mug of the dark coffee beans fine liquid is rushing towards my veins. My post could have been more clearly done. 2 coffees down now so I'll try to clarify things a bit better.

All I'm trying to say is that 'generally' if an anchorage is that bad why go or stay there, that would include anchoring in a place where it's full of continual wakes. I didn't read any of the posts as saying one every 5 min. Being anchored any where and having a wake or 2 is common so that doesn't come into my calculations as anything to do with a rolly anchorage.

Also I didn't read the post as a digg at 44'Cruisingcat more just a general and quite true comment. I saw it as just an open non-directed comment but I suppose some could read it the other way a bit though.

I don't know all your history but wouldn't mind it does sound like it would be interesting. My 110% comment was just based on my perception from the strong enthusiasm that comes across in your posts along with your quick reactions to some comments made by others. So you are sort of right with the 'imaginary you' comment and I'd also say you'd fit the term 'charactor' very well, and that is meant in a good way by the way. The world needs more characters.

As for moving your car, work and so on in bad weather or very adverse conditions. I suppose it's an individuals choice but as an employer I'd prefer you did rather than arrive at work without sleep Personally if an anchorage became that bad I couldn't sleep I'd do something about it. I say 'became' as I wouldn't anchor in a such a awful spot in the first place.

I think part of the confusion is that I'm (is / was) looking at this from a cruising point of view and just realised from your last post you have more of a 'live aboard' angle in it. From a live aboard angle yes a multi would be superior if you had to park in a wobbly place and couldn't choose anchorages easily.

That better or do we need to wait for the 3rd coffee to kick in
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Old 02-05-2008, 16:22   #448
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And why would one be anchored in a spot that bad?
That's a user issue not a boat design/type issue.
Yeah, you'd have to be pretty dumb to anchor somewhere that bad wouldn't you? Then again, you might not have noticed this, but conditions do change sometimes.

One of our favourite anchorages (under Rooney point, Fraser island) is very well protected from the prevailing South-Easterlies. But sometimes, if it's very calm, in the small hours you'll get a gentle South-West land breeze. And there's about 30 miles of fetch from the South-West.

Why not just move? Well, it's also about 30 miles to an anchorage that's protected from the South West, and by the time you got there, the land breeze would have died, and the South-Easterly would have kicked in, and you'd be rolling like a pig again.

Obviously this doesn't happen all the time. It doesn't even happen in that spot very often. If it did we wouldn't anchor there, would we? But it does happen.
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Old 02-05-2008, 16:28   #449
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First I have to agree with GMac. Second, you should have rigged your boat for heavy seas, nothing rattles when properly rigged. Third, I'd suggest you've never sortied a ship into a hurricane either. Since I have, ... I need to say nothing more to you.
So you rig your boat for heavy seas every single night? Even when anchored in a (usually) well protected spot? I can tell you that not many cruisers do. And if conditions do change, even that won't guarantee a comfortable night's sleep

Frankly I don't see what your experience of sortieing a ship in a hurricane has to do with anchoring a boat in a protected anchorage.
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Old 02-05-2008, 17:14   #450
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rigging for the unexpected

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So you rig your boat for heavy seas every single night? Even when anchored in a (usually) well protected spot? I can tell you that not many cruisers do. And if conditions do change, even that won't guarantee a comfortable night's sleep

Frankly I don't see what your experience of sortieing a ship in a hurricane has to do with anchoring a boat in a protected anchorage.

Well 44c, you may find most of the more experienced cruisers do actually have their boats permanently (within reason ) prepared for rough conditions. Getting the sun-cover off at dusk, stowing all loose gear back where it belongs, taking compass bearings and formulating an escape plan, and generally preparing the boat before turning in at night, just in-case you have to move at short notice for whatever reason.

An unexpected wind shift or another boat dragging anchor are just a few of the many reasons it is much safer to have your boat prepared.

Also all this talk of more comfortable anchoring in a cat is mostly true in that if one takes advantage of the shallow draft and ability to take the bottom level you have a better chance of finding protection, but we have certainly found the short sharp motion generated from beam on stuff is pretty uncomfortable compared to the gentle slow movement of a heavy mono (within reason). Deploying a stern anchor or moving the bridle attachment points can certainly help if conditions allow. This respite is generally only short lived as the turn of the tide is sure to stuff up everything.
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