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View Poll Results: Do you prefer mono- or multihull sailboats for cruising?
Monohull 138 36.70%
Multihull 238 63.30%
Voters: 376. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 24-03-2008, 18:07   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
Always new fodder for the debate!
I resemble that remark.
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Old 24-03-2008, 18:22   #362
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[quote=sneuman;146270]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickm505 View Post
In fact, the authors themselves admit as much: "Does this mean that multihulls are actually safer in very severe weather than monohulls? We who own both a monohull and a catamaran certainly wouldn't leap to that conclusion. After all, there were several other monohulls in the core area of the storm that didn't even issue maydays and survived the storm with very little damage."
Lets try this again with the entire quote

"We who own both a monohull and a catamaran certainly
wouldn't leap to that conclusion. After all, there were several other
monohulls in the core area of the storm that didn't even issue maydays and survived the storm with very little damage. And while it's much too small a sample on which to base any firm conclusions on, the performance of the catamarans in the storm nonetheless had some influence on our deciding to build a cat for our next charterboat."


Mr snewman -- no reputable person attempts to influence a discussion by utilizing partial or incomplete quotes, in effect lifting words out of context to change their meaning.

As for a smoking gun. Well, what would would any sailor call this? Two types of boats.. same storm, different results. This story in fact began the resurgence of catamarans in the commercial marketplace and directly influenced hundreds of boat sales... mine included.

For you to first lift words out of context and then attempt to dismiss the one story that is both factual and void of all opinions, is deplorable and dishonest. I can only wonder about the validity of any other post you've made on this board.

The entire and COMPLETE story he's referring to is here:

[PUP] Multihulls in the deep blue

The link to the non partial account by the Captain of the New Zealand rescue ship Monowai is here

Queens Birthday Storm 1994 - HMNZS MONOWAI
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Old 24-03-2008, 18:34   #363
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The point is, the three catamarans survived a storm which many would say was not survivable in a cat. They did NOT tip over as many would expect, and in fact were in sailable condition after the storm. (Except for the one intentionally sunk by the rescue ship)

That so many of the monohulls were repeatedly rolled, dismasted and one lost with all hands demonstrates that it was an extreme event, one that again, many would say multihulls would not be up to facing.

The remark about one boat being near to tipping was a subjective observation made by the crew. We will never really know if the boat was actually anywhere near to going over. What we do know is that the boat didn't tip, however close it might have seemed at the time.[/quote]

I think it's important to parse things out and not to generalize in a misleading way. These are key points that are being glossed over:

a) The boats we're discussing here are only the nine that issued maydays. There were apparently many other monohulls out there that did not issue distress calls.

b) It's wrong to say that all the monohulls lost their rigs. Several monohulls (the ones that didn't issue maydays) survived the storm unscathed. One other boat, a Tayana 37, was not dismasted by the extreme conditions, but when a rescue ship collided with it. The yacht's skipper expressed later that he felt confident and would have called off the rescue had it not been for a malfunctioning radio.

c) One cat was abandoned but found intact later, albeit "sailable". That's pretty much what happened to the monos, although of the vessels that issued a mayday most of them did lose their rig.

d) Two of the monos lost (the aforementioned Tayana 37 and an Explorer 45) experienced a second, more severe low that the other boats seem to have escaped (per the 1999 Latitude 38 article).

d) I think we're talking about a grand total of two multis vs. numerous monos. That gives us only two data points for the multis. Lies, and damn lies. I could similarly generalize by saying every one of the catamarans in the storm issued a distress call. But that would be equally unfair.

Latitude 38 - Nightmare Off New Zealand
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Old 24-03-2008, 18:35   #364
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Sneuman, your views no longer are of concern to me. What you did was deporable. And you're supposed to be a moderator here.

Speaking for myself, AndyR gets yet another email as a result of the posts of his moderators.
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Old 24-03-2008, 19:24   #365
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The point is, the three catamarans survived a storm which many would say was not survivable in a cat. They did NOT tip over as many would expect, and in fact were in sailable condition after the storm. (Except for the one intentionally sunk by the rescue ship)

That so many of the monohulls were repeatedly rolled, dismasted and one lost with all hands demonstrates that it was an extreme event, one that again, many would say multihulls would not be up to facing.

The remark about one boat being near to tipping was a subjective observation made by the crew. We will never really know if the boat was actually anywhere near to going over. What we do know is that the boat didn't tip, however close it might have seemed at the time.
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Old 24-03-2008, 19:26   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hud3 View Post
Sparohok,

I understand your point, but this thread's been going on for over five years, and I can't see where any of the participants have been convinced that they would switch "sides" for a future purchase.
Well, I would strongly disagree with this and point out that our own ssullivan purchased a catamaran last month after reading views on this very forum. I can only imagine how many people have been so influenced. Like it or not, this forum has grown. Multihull boats are not going to disappear and are growing in popularity. This forum is a major source of information and therefor has a responsibility to preserve a fair and balanced environment. This is not what is happening here.

My second point is that I read these posts every day. People who own catamarans and Tris are attempting to educate folks who are interested in them. Isn't that what this forum is all about?

Speaking for myself, I only posts facts, as opposed to opinions, and when I offer an opinion, I label it an opinion... I appreciate the same from other folks. This is how we learn and further our education.

This particular thread is disturbing as some monohull guys appear threatened by the popularity of multihulls, I don't know what else it could be. They also are posting any information they can to show our boats in a poor light. Facts are discarded, quotes altered, opinions rule, and management allows this to continue. This is what you call a debate?

It's a disturbing bias .... and that's my opinion.
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Old 24-03-2008, 19:34   #367
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[quote=44'cruisingcat;146341]You seem to be under the impression that we are saying multihulls are BETTER in extreme conditions than monohulls. AFAIK we are not. What we are doing is answering those who say that multihulls are dangerous or unsurvivable in those kinds of conditions - with factual evidence rather than just opinion.[quote]

OK, I suppose this is getting a bit silly. Correction: three multihulls. Do we know for sure there were other multis in the storm? (that's not a challenge, just a question, because it's not clear from what I have read and not obvious either, as in 1994 there weren't nearly as many cruising multis as today). It was stated earlier that all monos in the core of the storm were dismasted, but the reporting we're citing contradicts that.
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Old 24-03-2008, 19:48   #368
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You appear to have deleted the post of mine from which you quote. I guess that's one way to win an argument.
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Old 24-03-2008, 19:50   #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
OK, I suppose this is getting a bit silly. Correction: three multihulls. Do we know for sure there were other multis in the storm? (that's not a challenge, just a question, because it's not clear from what I have read and not obvious either, as in 1994 there weren't nearly as many cruising multis as today). It was stated earlier that all monos in the core of the storm were dismasted, but the reporting we're citing contradicts that.
Contradicts what?

"Also an analysis of the monohulls condensed:
"Five things stand out from the experience of the seven monohulls:

1)Despite all efforts, it was virtually impossible to keep the boats from
ending up beam-to the seas, which resulted in five of the boats being
repeatedly knocked down or rolled.

2) Despite trailing drogues, two of the boats pitchpoled.

3) No matter if the seven monohulls pitchpoled or rolled, all of them lost their masts.

4) As a result of the pitchpoles, knockdowns, and rollovers, many of the crews suffered serious injuries.

4) Having a ship come alongside to effect a rescue was extremely difficult and dangerous for everyone involved.

5) Perhaps the most amazing thing is how well the seven boats held up to the unthinkably horrible conditions; had it not been for scuttling or collisions with rescuing ships, six of them would have continued to float. The age-old admonition to never leave a boat until it's underwater would seem as true as ever."

These were the Maydays. We've read the same story, you know as much as we do.
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Old 24-03-2008, 19:58   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
You appear to have deleted the post of mine from which you quote. I guess that's one way to win an argument.
My sincere apology about that, the "quote" and "edit" buttons are side by side on the Moderator screen, and I'm new at this.

Rick, I'm referring to the the statement in the PUP article that:

"there were several other monohulls in the core area of the storm that didn't even issue maydays and survived the storm with very little damage."

which doesn't square with yours:

"All mono hulls caught in the center of the storm were rolled and dismasted no matter what course of action the crew took."
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Old 24-03-2008, 20:04   #371
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Having no real experience in bad conditions in either one I have to go on what I read.

I was sold on cats when I saw my first one, a 40 or so foot Lock Crowther design being built in Sarasota some time in the early 80's.

WOW!!

I am still sold. I think a well found, well skippered cat will be safer and more comfortable in a big blow than a well found, well skippered mono of comparable size.

That is what I believe and it is not just from a couple of references.

I am willing to wait longer to afford a cat because they are a lot more expensive. Especially since they are so dang popular now.

BUT.............I don't want to convince a lot of mono hullers of this because if they start switching over then the available spaces at dockside will be cut in about half. Some of the best anchoring spots will have double or triple (quintuple?) the number of boats in them.

That would suck.

So what is needed is for me to get the boat and get out there and add to the data pool.
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Old 24-03-2008, 20:17   #372
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I have to make this last post on the Queen's Birthday Storm. This was the single best documentation of monohulls and multihulls in the same storm.

The information presented in sneuman's posts and mine come from a Latitude 38 book review of a book called Rescue In The Pacific, a well-written and well-documented account of the Queen's Birthday Storm by Tony Farrington.

Steve Dashew has the weather maps of the weather event which caused the storm which was called a' bomb' or the 'perfect storm'. He offers these maps here.

http://www.setsail.com/products/pdfs/qbs.pdf

Lastly, an independent report was written by the Captain of the New Zealand rescue ship, Captain Larry Roberts. He wrote his account of the rescue.

We have weather, survivor accounts, Captain memoirs, all describing the same event. Mr. Dashew offers the information free of charge, as does Captain Roberts. Mr. Farrington does make money from book sales. Latitude 38 did the 'numbers' and summation.

Not one of the parties described above give a hoot about multihulls. What they did is take advantage of a unique event to offer a comparison. I, for one, am glad they did go through all of this trouble and feel they truly have contributed to the science of sailing.


Mr. sneuman, if you are calling Mr. Dashew, Captain Roberts, the storm survivors, and Latitude 38 all liars, so you can further your degradation of catamarans, I would say that your posts don't belong in this thread. Yes, that's an opinion.

One last point. when I read these accounts I did not own a catamaran. In fact, I ran right out and bought a Catalac. The same construction as S/V Heart Light portrayed in the story, and I am very glad I did.
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Old 24-03-2008, 20:20   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneuman View Post
which doesn't square with yours:

"All mono hulls caught in the center of the storm were rolled and dismasted no matter what course of action the crew took."
Sir, Do you know what a quote is? You did read the story? Then you recognize that I quoted the entire report without ommission.

It is not My Account... it is not my writing.. it is a direct, unedited quote which came from the same story you told us you read.
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Old 24-03-2008, 21:19   #374
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The tenor here seems to be getting a little more abrasive than it needs to be. In the end, a well-maintained and well-skippered boat is likely to survive just about anything except the most severe acts of God or war. It doesn't matter if the boat has one or two or three hulls.

Different boats have different sailing characteristics and carrying capacities.

People seek different things when they sail.

Because of this, we need different kinds of boats.

It is a complete waste of time to sit and lob insults back and forth between the mono and the multi camps. However, it can be enjoyable and quite entertaining if it's done in good humour.

When people start to imbue these opposing points of view with more import than they deserve, and relinquish their manners and self-control, the situation becomes uncomfortable for participants and observers alike.

So it might be a good idea to sit back, realise that there might be good things about craft other than the ones we personally own/sail, and return to good-natured ribbing rather than assaults on personal integrity.

(But I was talking to God on Friday night [he lives at the bottom of a bottle of single malt] and his theory is that the first catamaran came to be as a result of a naval architect drawing Blueprints whilst inebriated to point of seeing double)

Happy Easter !!!
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Old 25-03-2008, 00:10   #375
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Good golly what a kerfuffle the lads have going on. Danders are up and as they say 'stuff happens' on occasions like that.

I'm trying to organise my next build the biffo doesn't help so can I ask nicely if we call it a draw and move on? Call it selfish if you like but the longer I have to wade through a seemingly circular battle, the longer I have to have dry feet.

And before 'anyone' jumps the gun this 95% mono-sailor is trying to sort out his new Cat. No, nothing at all to do with seaworthiness as one thing I've learnt is a good boat that is well prepared and sailed by a good crew is about as safe as you'll get, albeit 1, 2 or 3 hulls. That storm was a freak so can't really be counted into the big scheme of things too highly.

Personally I've seen enough waves and they all look pretty similar so the faster I can get from point A to point B I'm happy. Simplistic theory maybe but that's me and what I want.
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