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View Poll Results: Do you prefer mono- or multihull sailboats for cruising?
Monohull 138 36.70%
Multihull 238 63.30%
Voters: 376. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19-03-2008, 15:18   #316
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Carefull with your insults Sparohok. Lets have an open discussion about performance and the boats we sail everyday.

IMO: using your rating system for Mono's
Class 1: TP 52, One-Off's, AICC
Class 2: Farr 40, Mumm 30, most Thompsons
Class 3: J 35, J 105, Mumm 36, Stomp, Schock 35
Class 4: J44, Tartan 41, C&C, Swan, J109
Class 5: Morris, Pearsons, Catalinas, Beneteaus, Hinckley
Class 6: IP's, Pacific Seacrafts, Whitby's....

If you say a Privlage is only class 5 so be it, but to call a J44 a racer is silly. The performance level is pretty far down the hill from the purpose built racers. I consider the J44 a cruiser that can be raced for fun, as any boat can be if enough are present to make a start.

The fact that there is critical mass for many monos allows one design racing but that fact alone does not define the boat. Catalina 27's race one design, would you consider that a hot racing boat?



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Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post
Once again I am struggling to understand this logic, except that you are being intentionally obtuse. I said that the J44, which has a one design class, can be used for racing and for cruising. Why would I turn around and claim that the Gunboat can only race?

Charles Kanter rates catamarans using 6 classes: 1) Experimental/high performance, 2) Racing, 3) Racing/sport cruisers, 4) Cruising/racing, 5) Cruising, 6) Residential/utility. He classifies the Gunboat 48 as class 2/3, and the Privilege 43 as class 5. The J44 would probably be class 3, and I would argue that a boat with an active one design class is almost certainly in class 2 or 3.

It is crystal clear that, sophistry and wordplay aside, the Privilege and the J44 are completely different kinds of boat.
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Old 19-03-2008, 17:10   #317
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I've seen NO insults to people ... but certainly a lot of BAITING. I suspect that some are masters at that. So, lets PLEASE keep the discussion going on for another 5 years without compromise from anyone and come to the same conclusion that was reached 4 years ago.

and again - reminders to ALL: Argue your point, however sharp it may be, but leave the personality clashes and bashes on a different forum.

Thank you.
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Old 19-03-2008, 17:30   #318
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Whether the J44 is a racer/cruiser or a cruiser/racer is an very fine distinction, which one could argue indefinitely. Yet there is no question that racing was a significant part of its design brief.

That unequivocally puts the J44 in a completely different class than the Privilege, and this is not at all a fine distinction. The Privilege is only a racer to the extent that it happens to have entered races. Even among cruising catamarans it is considered to be one that emphasizes space and comfort over speed.
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Old 19-03-2008, 17:46   #319
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The J44 was designed as a cruiser but turned out to be such a good boat folks raced them. With a SA/D of 19 they are rather sticky in the light stuff, a Morris 45 on the other hand, everyone agrees is a cruiser, has a SA/D of ~25. L/M does not build slow boats.

From a performance standpoint I look at polars and results. Race results, rally results, passage times, that is the true indication of what a boat will do. And again we are talking about boats we all sail everyday not GCats or Mari Cha.

I also think the Ocean records are near the limit and the mono's will eventually match the multis. Why? Boats can only sail as fast as the frontal systems move.
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Old 19-03-2008, 18:58   #320
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The J44 was designed as a cruiser but turned out to be such a good boat folks raced them. With a SA/D of 19 they are rather sticky in the light stuff, a Morris 45 on the other hand, everyone agrees is a cruiser, has a SA/D of ~25. L/M does not build slow boats.

From a performance standpoint I look at polars and results. Race results, rally results, passage times, that is the true indication of what a boat will do. And again we are talking about boats we all sail everyday not GCats or Mari Cha.

I also think the Ocean records are near the limit and the mono's will eventually match the multis. Why? Boats can only sail as fast as the frontal systems move.
I don't think I necessarily agree with that remark. 250knots around some cyclonesand you can slip from one system to another if you are good enough. The wind follows roughtly the isobars, and some isobars are pretty continuous across a large area, and talk to lots of sytems. Just look at any weathermap,
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Old 19-03-2008, 19:01   #321
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Quote:
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The J44 was designed as a cruiser but turned out to be such a good boat folks raced them.
Completely false:

boats.com - Boat Review/Test: Perry Design Review: J/44

'It is designed to offer performance to suit the needs of the "serious offshore racers" and the cruiser. A J/44 one-design class has already been established.'

This was written before the boat was launched.

Incidentally the J/44 has a PHRF rating of 30. Pretty good for a cruiser.
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Old 19-03-2008, 19:24   #322
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Like I said earlier, we must be coming from different locations.

A 44 footer weighing in at 24k with a SA/D of 19 is not my idea of a racer but hey if thats a scary ride to you,,,hang on I guess and keep the wife and kids at home.


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Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post
Completely false:

boats.com - Boat Review/Test: Perry Design Review: J/44

'It is designed to offer performance to suit the needs of the "serious offshore racers" and the cruiser. A J/44 one-design class has already been established.'

This was written before the boat was launched.

Incidentally the J/44 has a PHRF rating of 30. Pretty good for a cruiser.
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:03   #323
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Quote:
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Carefull with your insults Sparohok. Lets have an open discussion about performance and the boats we sail everyday.
Quote:
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A 44 footer weighing in at 24k with a SA/D of 19 is not my idea of a racer but hey if thats a scary ride to you,,,hang on I guess and keep the wife and kids at home.
OK Joli, I've got your number.

It's been fun. See ya around.
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:29   #324
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I'm wondering if round the bouys racing actually proves very much about a boat. I've seen some fairly large elapsed time differences in one design races - does the fact that one J24 beat another J24 by half an hour prove that the J24 is a faster boat than the J24?

Race results can be as much about the crews as the boats.
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Old 20-03-2008, 06:51   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post
Completely false:

boats.com - Boat Review/Test: Perry Design Review: J/44

'It is designed to offer performance to suit the needs of the "serious offshore racers" and the cruiser. A J/44 one-design class has already been established.'

This was written before the boat was launched.

Incidentally the J/44 has a PHRF rating of 30. Pretty good for a cruiser.
Apparently Joli knows more about the boat than the designer - me I say if the designer designed it to be a racer that can be cruised then thats what it is. Go back a few pages and JOLI clearly said that it was a crusing boat design that people happened to race - clearly that is absolutely wrong.
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Old 20-03-2008, 06:52   #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I'm wondering if round the bouys racing actually proves very much about a boat. I've seen some fairly large elapsed time differences in one design races - does the fact that one J24 beat another J24 by half an hour prove that the J24 is a faster boat than the J24?
.
Yes - yes it does and it proves that a J24 can go well to windward but a J24 struggles to windward.
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Old 20-03-2008, 08:32   #327
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factor says....Apparently Joli knows more about the boat than the designer.

Mmmmmm factor the quote you base this on is by mr perry the journo not mr jonstone the boats designer. But at the end of the day yesterdays racing yacht is tomorrows cruising yacht. Look at the s&s 34.

factor says....Yes - yes it does and it proves that a J24 can go well to windward but a J24 struggles to windward.

yesssss factor lay back on the couch, close your eyes and all will become clear.
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Old 20-03-2008, 16:55   #328
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Mmmmmm factor the quote you base this on is by mr perry the journo not mr jonstone the boats designer.
Bob Perry isn't a journalist, he's a yacht designer. So I don't think this is really a fair distinction to make between Perry and Johnstone.

Ok, technically speaking Perry is a yacht designer who happens to write articles. I guess that makes him a designer/journalist. Or you might say, a designer who can write articles. After all he started his career designing boats, and only later it turned out he could write articles.

On the other hand, in this case, since Johnstone designed the boat and Perry's writing an article about it, he's more of a journalist/designer.

Fortunately we can look up their respective handicap ratings from the National Association of Maritime Writers...

I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?
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Old 20-03-2008, 21:41   #329
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yes yes sparohok...... if boat designers actually agreed on too much we would have a lot of similar boats out there sailing. Just ask 44c, and we would all have flat hull bottoms, or ask rob and we would all be sailing backwards or is it forwards. One designers racer is another designers performance cruiser.
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Old 20-03-2008, 23:30   #330
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Hello Dave,

I guess we come from different directions? I can't think of any JBoat as a racing boat, other then maybe the old 41.

J44 Frontpage

To me a race boat has a very minimal interior, carbon hull, stringers and ring frames. TP 52, Farr 40, Mumm 30, T1150......
Outreemer 55 is a cruiser then and infact most racing cats over 40ft I know are then cruisers as they dont have stripped out carbon hulls either



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