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View Poll Results: Do you prefer mono- or multihull sailboats for cruising?
Monohull 138 36.70%
Multihull 238 63.30%
Voters: 376. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17-03-2008, 20:02   #301
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IMHO Tristan Jones was a complete fraud, and his stories were total fabrications. I always thought so. My brother in law asked me why I thought that, but as an experienced offshore yachtie, it rang wrong on so many levels that it was hard to answer. He has been outed subsequently.
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Old 17-03-2008, 23:10   #302
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At the risk of major controversy, but think carefully on what I mean... Cat sailing is DIFFERENT and a mono sailors normal practice would result in catastrophes because of the suddenness from "it appears stable" to GOooooooon in a trip capsize.... Sail a cat as a cat... Reef early or become inverted... It is all part of good seamanship and KNOWING YOUR BOAT...
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Old 18-03-2008, 06:02   #303
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Originally Posted by catty View Post
Certainly a large difference in speed, at best one would have to assume conditions were light where mono's with their superior wetted surface ratios would be hard to beat, at worst who knows ,maybe joli can shed some light on them.

If you have any local round the bouys cruising mono/cat races with windward legs included, 44c, is it possible for you to post elapsed times , course lengths and conditions etc for analysis. The more data points the better.
Wednesday afternoon WAGS race at RQYS Manly

Predominatly a reach to the first nark, a beat to hope Banks and a square run home.

Multi's ALWAYS gave the monos up to an hour head start depending on boat.

The handicap system was set up so most boats arrived home and back at the bar at about the same time.

On days with a good blow the faster multis would give the head start and arrive home well in front of the first to leave

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Old 18-03-2008, 06:52   #304
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The results are posted here: Home*-*Heineken Regatta

The wind was steady through out the regatta with starts staggered 10 minutes. I'm not sure about the starting sequence but the elapsed time tells the speed around the course. The waves, maybe 4 foot, were the ussual Caribbean short chop with a swell under it. Winds were ~20-30.

On another course the other multis sailed against the open class and the Hanse 411 seemed to be about the same speed as the Atlantic 55. The Outremer 55 was very quick.

I find the results not surpising. Compare say a J 44 to Privlage 445 in 20 knots of breeze. If there is weather work the J is ~63% faster "VMG of 3.75 versus VMG of 5.9 knots to weather. If the course is 135 degrees the Privlage is faster 13 knots versus 11 knots.

If you sail 6 mile legs triangle, windward, leeward, windward the J will sail the course in under 5 hours and the Privlage will sail the course in 7.5 hours.

If you never sail to weather it doesn't matter.
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Old 18-03-2008, 19:49   #305
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IMHO Tristan Jones was a complete fraud, and his stories were total fabrications.
I try to never hoist the BS flag too high in regards to another sailors stories. The first liar never has a chance against the second, and some of my own stories seem pretty crazy to even myself sometimes...
I was only referencing an easy example of what seem to be the negatives of multi-hulls that "seem" obvious to the mono-hull sailor. I can also draw example that the fastest boat to complete a circumnavigation was the 90' cat from NZ, if memory serves me correct. It handled the Roaring 50s in record time.
Lacking personal crusing experience on a multi-hull, my preference is pure anecdotal, and I offer myself available to any captain of a multi-hull on the East Coast who would be interested in showing me the difference first hand; (read: shameless bid to go anywhere the wind is blowing...)
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Old 18-03-2008, 21:39   #306
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[quote=BigCat;144007]IMHO Tristan Jones was a complete fraud, and his stories were total fabrications.

That may be a little harsh. No doubt he embellished his stories but there is no denying he lead an adventurous life and sailed many miles. He was a good storyteller even though the stories were exaggerated to some degree.

This argument about which is faster a monohull or multihull that has been going on here lately seems to have been settled recently and very decisively. What better test than around the world. Long passages in all types of weather and on all points of sail. Let's see, Joyon's 57 days on a trimaran or the fasted monohull record I was able to find, 87 days by Vincent Riou.
Who cares about some rinky dink race around some arbitrary triangle that might add up to 25 miles when compared to a true test like round the world.
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Old 19-03-2008, 04:10   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
I find the results not surpising. Compare say a J 44 to Privlage 445 in 20 knots of breeze. If there is weather work the J is ~63% faster "VMG of 3.75 versus VMG of 5.9 knots to weather. If the course is 135 degrees the Privlage is faster 13 knots versus 11 knots.

.
Without meaning to offend but some would consider the Privlage to be a lot more of a cruiser than a racer and possibly even leaning towards being very suitable as a charter boat.

Having sailed on J44's (in my Mono days) I always thought of them more as a racer that could be cruised and in no way comparable to a charter boat.

Dave
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Old 19-03-2008, 05:01   #308
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Dave is correct. If you believe that citing a J44 versus a Privilege is a fair, or representative comparison, then why not compare a Westsail 43 to a comparably sized Outremer/Fastcat? In both cases one is comparing monos against comparably sized catamarans.

'Performance' cats frequently do outperform 'performance' monos upwind because of the vastly superior VMG of the performance cat over its more heavy cruising brethern (ie, the Privilege). I suspect that the Fastcat can likely do 20 knots close reaching in 20 knots of wind. Add in the advantages on the other legs and I am confident that there would be no contest.

Brad
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Old 19-03-2008, 05:09   #309
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Hello Dave,

I guess we come from different directions? I can't think of any JBoat as a racing boat, other then maybe the old 41.

J44 Frontpage

To me a race boat has a very minimal interior, carbon hull, stringers and ring frames. TP 52, Farr 40, Mumm 30, T1150......

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Without meaning to offend but some would consider the Privlage to be a lot more of a cruiser than a racer and possibly even leaning towards being very suitable as a charter boat.

Having sailed on J44's (in my Mono days) I always thought of them more as a racer that could be cruised and in no way comparable to a charter boat.

Dave
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Old 19-03-2008, 05:50   #310
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[quote=Steve Rust;144393]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post

This argument about which is faster a monohull or multihull that has been going on here lately seems to have been settled recently and very decisively. What better test than around the world. Long passages in all types of weather and on all points of sail. Let's see, Joyon's 57 days on a trimaran or the fasted monohull record I was able to find, 87 days by Vincent Riou.
Who cares about some rinky dink race around some arbitrary triangle that might add up to 25 miles when compared to a true test like round the world.
If you follow the winds and current - which these sailors did, you're talking about an overwhelmingly DOWNWIND circumnavigation. While I have never tried to argue that multis aren't faster than monos, I don't think that is in any way a "decisive" test.
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Old 19-03-2008, 10:18   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
The results are posted here: Home*-*Heineken Regatta

The wind was steady through out the regatta with starts staggered 10 minutes. I'm not sure about the starting sequence but the elapsed time tells the speed around the course. The waves, maybe 4 foot, were the ussual Caribbean short chop with a swell under it. Winds were ~20-30.

On another course the other multis sailed against the open class and the Hanse 411 seemed to be about the same speed as the Atlantic 55. The Outremer 55 was very quick.

I find the results not surpising. Compare say a J 44 to Privlage 445 in 20 knots of breeze. If there is weather work the J is ~63% faster "VMG of 3.75 versus VMG of 5.9 knots to weather. If the course is 135 degrees the Privlage is faster 13 knots versus 11 knots.

If you sail 6 mile legs triangle, windward, leeward, windward the J will sail the course in under 5 hours and the Privlage will sail the course in 7.5 hours.

If you never sail to weather it doesn't matter.
So they didn't sail the same course at the same time then. In which case nothing is proved, really. Conditions on course may have changed considerably - the wind direction may have changed, or the tide may have turned, (or both) for instance.
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Old 19-03-2008, 12:47   #312
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I guess we come from different directions? I can't think of any JBoat as a racing boat, other then maybe the old 41.
Joli you're being obtuse -- intentionally so it would seem.

Dave called the J44 a "racer that could be cruised" which is an eminently fair description. If you wish to restrict the use of "racer" or "racing boat" to describe vessels which have absolutely no purpose other than racing, you are at odds with both common usage and common sense. It seems to me that any boat with an active one design class has some reasonable claim to describe their activity as racing.

Perhaps you can point us to the web page for the Privilege 445 one design class?
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Old 19-03-2008, 13:20   #313
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So then Gunboats that race one design and have there own one design class are race boats only?

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Joli you're being obtuse -- intentionally so it would seem.

Dave called the J44 a "racer that could be cruised" which is an eminently fair description. If you wish to restrict the use of "racer" or "racing boat" to describe vessels which have absolutely no purpose other than racing, you are at odds with both common usage and common sense. It seems to me that any boat with an active one design class has some reasonable claim to describe their activity as racing.

Perhaps you can point us to the web page for the Privilege 445 one design class?
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:29   #314
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So then Gunboats that race one design and have there own one design class are race boats only?
Once again I am struggling to understand this logic, except that you are being intentionally obtuse. I said that the J44, which has a one design class, can be used for racing and for cruising. Why would I turn around and claim that the Gunboat can only race?

Charles Kanter rates catamarans using 6 classes: 1) Experimental/high performance, 2) Racing, 3) Racing/sport cruisers, 4) Cruising/racing, 5) Cruising, 6) Residential/utility. He classifies the Gunboat 48 as class 2/3, and the Privilege 43 as class 5. The J44 would probably be class 3, and I would argue that a boat with an active one design class is almost certainly in class 2 or 3.

It is crystal clear that, sophistry and wordplay aside, the Privilege and the J44 are completely different kinds of boat.
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Old 19-03-2008, 14:47   #315
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Almost five years since this thread started and the arguments still go on. WOW
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