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View Poll Results: Do you prefer mono- or multihull sailboats for cruising?
Monohull 138 36.70%
Multihull 238 63.30%
Voters: 376. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-03-2008, 16:28   #241
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Puts what into perspective? It's written by someone who wasn't on any of the boats he talks about, and in fact we don't even know if it is true.

I certainly have my suspicions about it. There are too many people who have circumnavigated in catamarans, both light and heavy, who don't seem to have had the concerns mentioned. Also the market here doesn't seem to be flooded with foreign registered catamarans being sold off cheap. Surely if "Almost without fail, most of these boats were being put on the market when they reached Australia " We would see evidence of this in the marketplace?

The "Bumfuzzles" for example. Surely if cats were so unseaworthy, and seemed so likely to break up, they would have expressed some concern at some point? On the contrary, they seemed to be totally sold on the concept of cats.

The article seems to be simply based on preconceptions - cats pound, cats don't sail to windward, etc. Well designed, modern cats do sail to windward, and very very rarely pound.

On the return trip from the Whitsundays, the crew of "Tribute" (Oram 38) caught up at Rosslyn bay with one of the monohulls which had been at the Hamilton Island race week. This boat had had a 7 day head start, and a crew of 8 - who were all complaining about being exhausted by sailing into the constant strong headwinds and had decided to leave the boat there, and fly back to Brisbane, rather than continue against the strong SE winds.

Tribute, with a crew of just 2, continued to sail south. This doesn't prove that monohulls can't go to windward. But it does show that cats can.
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Old 07-03-2008, 18:01   #242
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I keep seeing postings that exaggerate the average speed of cruising multihulls. Your typical family cruising boat run by mom and pop, maybe with a kid or two, will average less that the square root of the waterline in feet, with square root equaling knots. So, day in and day out, a boat with a 36' DWL is going to average less than 6 knots, adding up to 144 nautical miles per 24 hour day, over a period of months. This "half of the windspeed" stuff is an exaggeration. Will a multihull will go 50 knots in a 100 knot winds? Of course not. 25 knots in 50 knots of wind speed? Um, no. 12 knots in 24 knots? Maybe, if the wind happens to be abeam (which it very rarely is,) and if you aren't afraid to keep enough sail up to sail at that speed in the middle of the night with one person standing watch, while you surf in 12 foot waves. And who cares what your knot meter touches while you surf down a wave front? What counts is the average day after day.
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Old 07-03-2008, 18:33   #243
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Well, we averaged just under 8.5 knots over 4 1/2 days in a 38' cat. I haven't seen anyone claiming to be able to sail at 50kts in 100kts wind, but the fact is, there are cruising cats and tri's (and mono's for that matter) that can sail at very close to, or even better than windspeed WHEN IT IS LIGHT. Not on all point of sail by any means.

It's true, most cruisers will average less than this over longer distances. We usually could average 5 1/2 - 6 kts in our steel monohull - but we would often motor when the speed went under around 3 1/2 - 4 kts. I'm hopeful that the new boat will manage better averages than this, while motoring far less often.
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Old 07-03-2008, 23:19   #244
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[quote=Eleven;140908] Some folks aren't happy unless they're suffering.

Masochists with maybe a little bondage thrown in. There was a recent topic on one of the monohull threads about the best way to strap yourself in while cooking in the galley. Straps in the galley, straps in the bunks. What next, strap yourself to the head? I just have to laugh. I think back to a few years ago when I was sailing my tri across Lake Superior, Huron, and Michigan. I had just put in new cabinets in the galley and I could not find the latches I wanted so we just went without. Just the light spring loaded pressure of the hinges keep the doors shut the whole way. We spent a whole day running at 9-11 knots in 6-7 foot waves and 20+ knots of wind. Make mine a trimaran. Okay, if I had 300k to spend it would be a Mystery Cove 42 catamaran.
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:39   #245
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The 'letter' was just that - it was of no more value than any posting here that is big on opinion and low on actual experience/sources. Actually, he has no experience in catamarans and cites no recognized sources. Indeed, he does not even name the manufacturer or models of the cats he denigrates (apart from taking the broad swipe at cats manufactured in France and South Africa - where most production cats are now manufactured).

And when is the last time anyone here has heard of a production multi 'breaking up' at sea? If the catamaran sailors to which the author of the letter refers were in constant fear of the same, were they also in fear of sea-monsters? The vast majority of cats in North and South America and the Caribbean were sailed here - as 44' cruising cat says, where is the flood on the market of badly damaged, virtually new cats?

The letter is another example of myths being perpetuated by people with no personal experience in multihulls. As the current owner of a 40 foot cat and the previous owner of a 36 foot steel Cartwright pilothouse cutter (3 of which have circumnavigated), I am just as comfortable with the notion of blue-water sailing in my cat as my previous mono. And that is not because I am crazy (although I may be) - it is because my cat was built to Lloyd's unlimited offshore specs and has already crossed the North Atlantic, then sailed from Canada to South America and back without terrifying the crew or suffering damage to the hull or rig.

What I can agree with is that there are stories of people in sailboats who, after their first ocean crossing, give up their dream and place their boats up for sale. This is not typically boat-specific, but rather people specific: water sailing">blue water sailing is not all sipping sundowners on balmy days and many find their dream and the reality to be in stark contrast. The people who do this are, for obvious reasons, far more likely to blame the boat than themselves and their lack of experience/preparedness. If it was truly the boat that troubled them, then they would surely have gone out and immediately bought a monohull to continue on their voyage. And that never happens (I stand to be corrected, but I would love to read about one single confirmed example of someone who did, and of the specific boats involved).

Quite to the contrary, there are countless examples of experienced sailors moving from monohulls to multis (and as this site demonstrates, many more who are now thinking of it), but few if any of people who own multis moving back to monos. Perhaps that puts things in 'perpsective'.

Brad
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Old 08-03-2008, 06:39   #246
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http://www.sailblogs.com/member/volare/
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Old 08-03-2008, 06:40   #247
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BIGCAT,

If you are referring to my remark of half the windspeed? Then you need to remember the remark directly afterwards. I typed the boat would not push it's shoulders into waves at 25knots, and I have to fall off. Up to 20 knts the boat has done half the wind speed numerous times. You have never sailed my boat. You don't know my boat. Obviously you are a very intelligent person with tons of wonderful information. You just don't know EVERYTHING. I am willing to wager you know a heck of lot more than me, but that still doesn't place you on my boat....does it?

When you make a remark (will a boat do 50 in 100). It seems that you will stretch what someone states to make yourself look like the brightest light in the room. Use your common sense, and stop nit picking everything anyone says. It just makes you look arrogant............
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Old 09-03-2008, 00:45   #248
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Big cat, you're dead right on the speed issue. Heres a quote from Richard Woods, very experienced catamaran designer/builder/sailor.

"I usually reckon that peak speeds are about twice the average speed. So if you average 8 knots that means you have often done 16 knots and you will swear the log never read below 12. The best I have ever done was 600 miles in 3 days when racing a 35ft Banshee catamaran and 250 miles in 24hours, again when racing. The best days run when cruising was 185 miles in my 32ft Eclipse, a boat I had earlier sailed at over 20 knots when day sailing, and a boat that when racing proved faster than, for example, all the French production cats." Unquote.


As for beating off a lee shore in the nasty stuff I suspect most cruising cats will have trouble if their not set up to tack a storm jib closer to the mast base than the standard rollerfurling genoa. As one works their way up and over each wave crest with most of the forward section of the boat out of the water and now in freefall mode, a mostly rolled up genoa, with its area right up on the bow , causes the bows to blow off the wind, making windward progress a problem. I suspect most cruising cats simply have too much windage to complete a tack in these conditions. Keeping the boatspeed at a comfortable level is also a real problem (Not too fast and not stalled.)
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Old 09-03-2008, 06:48   #249
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Catty, Richard Woods is indeed a very experienced designer/builder/sailor of cruising cats. I wonder if the last paragraph is a conclusion that he arrived at after the difficulties he experienced a couple of years ago off the coast of South America - where he felt forced to abandon ship after his sea anchor failed in extreme condiitions. Certainly I don't recall his earlier designs as having featured either a cutter or solent rig.

Regardless, it does seem to suggest that the cutter rigs as employed by Prout, Catalac, Solaris and now Broadblue (at least as an option) are worth a second look for 'bluewater' catamarans. Clearly they provide lower performance in light to moderate air, but they do provide an inner stay for a staysail/storm jib (and it would be extremely difficult/expensive to retrofit an inner chainplate in most cats).

There are other advantages, of course. A dedicated inner stay (especially with a furling staysail/storm jib) greatly simplifies deploying your heavy weather sails. The sail can be/should be made with much heavier sailcloth than the genoa, allowing it to withstand much higher winds (and saving the genoa from damage either through being blown out in wind velocities for which it was not designed, or through chafe from the straps of a 'galerider' storm jib). In conjunction with furling, it also allows deployment of the storm sails from the safety of the cockpit.

Furthermore, the aft location of the mast on the above mentioned boats places it at what is generally the strongest part of the bridgedeck structure (the aft coach house bulkhead) and moves it closer to the center of bouyancy of the boat, where it will have less impact on hobbyhorsing. Finally, it places the halyards, reefing lines and gooseneck at a position where they are not only more convenient, but much safer to use. Yes, one can lead halyards/single reefing lines back to the cockpit from a fractional rig, but only with an increase in complexity/friction.

I wonder if the remarkable offshore safety record of Prouts, despite the fact that most are now getting rather 'long in the tooth', is related to the rig as much as the design/construction of the hulls? Regardless, it strikes me that Richard Woods comments merit some serious consideration by all who venture offshore in their cats.

One can recall that the cutter rig was extremely popular on monohulls designed for offshore sailing through the early 1980's, when the standard masthead (or less commonly, fractional) sloop rig took over. Yes, this improved light air performance (and pointing ability), but at a cost that has now been recognized by many. Witness the current preference for 'Solent' rigs (with dedicated inner stays) on many high-priced, high performance offshore monohulls. Since the bows of a cat are even more susceptible to being blown off to leeward than in a mono, they have an even greater need for a dedicated inner stay.

Brad
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:29   #250
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I just went with a friend to look at cats (he's thinking of sort of being in the market ...) and I came away with much the same impression as last time I did this. First, and this is TOTALLY subjective, just really ugly boats on the outside. Lots of wastefully redundant systems and companionways you could drive a truck through. What's up with that? The salesman joked about bikini-clad girls and the party band, but I couldn't help imagining that one big wave that screams in over the transom and stoves in those sliding patio doors. It just seems like a nightmare waiting to happen. I won't mention the make of these particular boats, but suffice to saythey are among the sector leaders and seem to be very well regarded on this forum. I have sailed on several big and small cats, but none of this (IMHO) extremely dubious design.
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Old 09-03-2008, 20:09   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catty View Post
Big cat, you're dead right on the speed issue. Heres a quote from Richard Woods, very experienced catamaran designer/builder/sailor.

"I usually reckon that peak speeds are about twice the average speed. So if you average 8 knots that means you have often done 16 knots and you will swear the log never read below 12. The best I have ever done was 600 miles in 3 days when racing a 35ft Banshee catamaran and 250 miles in 24hours, again when racing. The best days run when cruising was 185 miles in my 32ft Eclipse, a boat I had earlier sailed at over 20 knots when day sailing, and a boat that when racing proved faster than, for example, all the French production cats." Unquote.


As for beating off a lee shore in the nasty stuff I suspect most cruising cats will have trouble if their not set up to tack a storm jib closer to the mast base than the standard rollerfurling genoa. As one works their way up and over each wave crest with most of the forward section of the boat out of the water and now in freefall mode, a mostly rolled up genoa, with its area right up on the bow , causes the bows to blow off the wind, making windward progress a problem. I suspect most cruising cats simply have too much windage to complete a tack in these conditions. Keeping the boatspeed at a comfortable level is also a real problem (Not too fast and not stalled.)
I guess Richard Woods is pretty close there. When we averaged nearly 8 1/2 knots over 4 1/2 days we did hit 17+ knots once, and spent a fair bit of time doing 12-15. There were also periods of next to no wind where we were going at 5-6. (Amazing how slow 6 knots felt) The thing I liked is, we were SAILING, not motoring.

As for performance to windward in rough conditions - surely it depends on the particular boat, just as it does with monohulls? Some of them won't tack, some tack very slowly, some don't point high, some have excessive leeway - and so it is with cats - there are well designed sailing cats, and those which don't sail so well. From your comments it seems you may have had one of the latter.
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Old 09-03-2008, 20:13   #252
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Catty, Richard Woods is indeed a very experienced designer/builder/sailor of cruising cats. I wonder if the last paragraph is a conclusion that he arrived at after the difficulties he experienced a couple of years ago off the coast of South America - where he felt forced to abandon ship after his sea anchor failed in extreme condiitions.
I don't think the last paragraph was Richard Woods. (no quotation marks) I think that was all Catty.
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:56   #253
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Just dug up the race results for 2007 Darwin Ambon race.( down wind race) .There appears to be some variations in times from website to website however.

Race record of "zuma" (open wing racing cat) of 56h 20m for the 600nm gives an average speed of approx 10.6knts.

In 2007 15m schionning "cruise missile" was 6 hours slower with average of 9.6 knots, in conditions described as champagne sailing in 15 to 25 knot reaching conditions. The boat was fully crewed with all extra gear offloaded to maximise performance.

Makes a mockery of anyone saying a modern cruising multihull can sail anywhere near windspeed. Mum dad and the kids with all the cruising crap would be battling to average 7 or 8 for 600 nm.
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Old 10-03-2008, 03:35   #254
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The article, by a mono man in a sailing mag (selling to mono men) is in response to pro-multi article in Afloat, Feb08 titled 'Keels - who wants them?'.
It castigates all cruising multi's as being no better sailed or sail'ers than any other multi or mono.
Now why would anyone want to flog for a week into a 25 kn wind when they can extend their holiday in 'wherever' by a few days and have a more comfortable crossing a week or so later.

The feb article was deploring the use of canting and depth changing keels (that still need some dead weights crap themselves on one rail while the sea washed the other) on ocean going cruisers!
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Old 10-03-2008, 06:13   #255
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44'cruising cat, why from Catty's comments do you conclude that her cat does not sail to windward/tack? She was talking about tacking while trying to claw off a lee shore in extreme conditions : surely any boat is apt to perform better with a dedicated inner stay in those conditions. Did you watch the short video link under the heading 'lee shore' (or something similar) over the last couple of days? Frankly, I can't imagine any boat clawing their way off that shore in those conditions.

Nevertheless, Catty got it right: there is certainly something to be said for a dedicated inner stay for storm sails.

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