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Old 18-01-2014, 21:08   #1
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Mono vs Multi!

Im new to the forum and considering changing from a mono to multihull.
Have coastal cruised in my Jeanneau's, 34Sunrise and them my SO40.
Loved the SO40, awesome boat under sail, however comfort for family at anchor, space and stability need to be considered, as we will to spend much more time around the Barrier reef, have me considering a cat, (with my wifes assistance)
While the smaller Fountaine Pajot and Lagoons are to her liking I would like something that will push to windward (dagger boards etc) and have better speed running before the wind.
Schionning 1030/Prescott Whitehaven?
Would love to hear any owners of the above mentioned boats thoughts.
Would like to keep around the 35-38 foot size.
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Old 19-01-2014, 00:56   #2
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re: Mono vs Multi!

I like the Schonnings and if I had the budget, I'd be in a G Force 15m...So I see where you are coming from. Bear in mind, they are not production boats per se, and have significant boat to boat differences based on the builder/owner characteristics and as such perhaps greater care and scrutiny is waranted when comparing vessels. Having been through this myself, where I came close to commissioning a Spirited 38 yet opted for a Lagoon 440, there are clearly many variables. They should be faster than average French production boats because they are usually 2/3 the weight with narrower hulls. Nevertheless, is that speed relevant to your needs. If 80% of your sailing is a weekend sail then the difference between "fast cruising" cat and "French Production" cats might be 15 minutes on the 3 hour sail home (Say Tangalooma to Manly). If you plan to do long passages often, with a time restraint, then maybe this is more relevant. As for pointing higher, again, for racing where 3 -5 degrees is going to make all the difference, then it is important. In most cruising applications it simply isn't.
Yesterday the Surf to City yacht race was held over approx 88NM course largely down wind in 10-15+kts. We ghosted the leading boats over the final 44NM. Black Jack, a Volvo70 averaged 13.5kts. Boss Racing (the recent Brisbane to Gladstone Multihull winner 2011,12) averaged 12.5kts. Several fancied 40-50 light weight cruising cats including several Schonnings generally averaged 8.5-10kts. For comparison, we averaged 7.8kts over 44NM although we chose not to hoist the big ASI using a screecher due to being short on experienced crew. So perhaps we were 2kts slower in those conditions. Maybe we could have reduced this by 0,5-1 kt with the ASI. The point being, we weren't that slow. I'd have a good listen to your wife, as a happy sailing buddy is the most important criteria when boat buying. Sure, think performance, but also think budget, resale, accomodations, galley, comfort, motion at sea, heavy weather comfort and ease of sailing esp. if short handed like I generally am. Your going to come to love what ever you eventually get! Make sure she does too!
Cheers.
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Old 19-01-2014, 06:11   #3
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re: Mono vs Multi!

Check out the Kelsall designs with dagger boards.
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Old 19-01-2014, 06:14   #4
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re: Mono vs Multi!

get something you can beach easily for gbr
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Old 19-01-2014, 06:38   #5
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re: Mono vs Multi!

Pescott Whitehaven. Excellent boats. They point 5 degrees higher than me with less leeway, and I point 5 degrees higher than some other brands. Its not just about pointing - its about leeway as well. Mark Pescott would probably build you a new one for no more than the price of a production French boat as well.

When people say -its only 5 degrees, you have to factor in what that really means if you are tacking to windward all day, Sit down with a chart, pick a start point assume equal speed, though the Pescott is likely to be quicker on all points, then travel for an hour on paper then tack do another hour - etc etc assume a 90degree included angle for pescott and 100 degree for the "other boat" and trust me it will be more than 100degrees for many boats, and then see where you end up after 12 hours. Try it with 90 and 110 - see how it looks. then 120 - etc etc.

Let me be clear, I have no commercial interest in them and dont have one for sale, so I am not pushing my own barrow, a good one is just simply an excellent boat.

Quote:
Yesterday the Surf to City yacht race was held over approx 88NM course largely down wind in 10-15+kts. We ghosted the leading boats over the final 44NM. Black Jack, a Volvo70 averaged 13.5kts. Boss Racing (the recent Brisbane to Gladstone Multihull winner 2011,12) averaged 12.5kts. Several fancied 40-50 light weight cruising cats including several Schonnings generally averaged 8.5-10kts.
Boss racing all up cost less than the Bar Bill for the crew of Black Jack. The two Schionnings were the latter placed in OMR. The Whitehaven in the race averaged a poofteenth under 9 knots, which was faster than every MOno, cept Black Jack, the whitehaven can be easily sailed by one person and hard raced by two or three
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Old 19-01-2014, 07:17   #6
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I have owned an Edel 35 cat, a Tartan 34 and an Ericson 38 among others over a long sailing history just so you know where my opinion comes from.

Talking cruising here.

I think a cruising cat needs to be in excess of 40ft for two people to cruise for a 3 month or longer live aboard season. The main reason is weight. Loaded for cruising our Edel gained an easy 5 inches of draft and lost performance accordingly. The E38 similarly loaded for 3 months in the Exumas barely sank an inch and performance might have been affected but it was hard to tell.

On the Edel we carried a 9ft AB dink and a 3.5 hp motor (barely adequate). The E38 carried a 12ft Avon rib with 15hp Yamaha. On the cat we used sunshowers for hot water, on the Ericson the engine waste heat made hot water. The Ericson carried 120 gallons of water, the Edel 30 gallons. The Ericson could also motor for 60 hours or so if necessary, the Edel maybe 20 hours at best.

While we've loved both boats and cruised both extensively, we were more comfortable and felt more at home on the Ericson.

On the other hand, if I could afford a 42ft+ cat I'd go that way. I like sailing level and slipping into shallow anchorages. Not to mention partying with 20 of our fellow cruisers aboard.

My friend is now cruising the Bahamas in his FP Athena 38 cat but reports that they are so loaded that his performance has really suffered.

I think that length for length monohulled sailboats have better ability to carry all the cruising stuff you're wanting to take with less impact on performance.

I'd also mention that we did engage in several cruisers regattas over the years and boat for boat the Ericson was seldom passed by cruising cats up to 44ft or so. She usually managed to finish in the rum too. Great boat.
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Old 19-01-2014, 07:55   #7
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MONO V'S MULTI!

Great thread, this one, with each post adding great insight. CaptRonB presents an angle that after my first 12 months of research on my next boat, I now fully comprehend. Length for length vs load carrying capacity makes better sense to me.

And timeless advice perhaps above all else: "Your going to come to love what ever you eventually get! Make sure she does too!"
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Old 19-01-2014, 10:15   #8
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I don't think it would be fair to base the cruising payload of all under 40' cruising cats based on one boat. When we sold our Catfisher 32 we removed all the items and put them on our Cherokee 35. The Catfisher gained about 4" of waterline and the Cherokee went down maybe an inch. This told me that the Cherokees performance won't suffer as much as the Catfishers with a full cruise load on her. We actually prefer a 35-36' cat for cruising over the 40 plus footers. But then again we also watch what we put on board and try to keep them light.
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Old 19-01-2014, 10:54   #9
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re: Mono vs Multi!

Good point SMJ. In my last response, I was thinking about how Kanter's Cruising Communique addresses load carry capacity impacted by hull shape profile. In any accurate comparison, you would consider for profile and how that also suggests optimal fore - aft, side to side weight positioning on the boat.
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Old 19-01-2014, 13:03   #10
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re: Mono vs Multi!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Wind View Post
I like the Schonnings and if I had the budget, I'd be in a G Force 15m...So I see where you are coming from. Bear in mind, they are not production boats per se, and have significant boat to boat differences based on the builder/owner characteristics and as such perhaps greater care and scrutiny is waranted when comparing vessels. Having been through this myself, where I came close to commissioning a Spirited 38 yet opted for a Lagoon 440, there are clearly many variables. They should be faster than average French production boats because they are usually 2/3 the weight with narrower hulls. Nevertheless, is that speed relevant to your needs. If 80% of your sailing is a weekend sail then the difference between "fast cruising" cat and "French Production" cats might be 15 minutes on the 3 hour sail home (Say Tangalooma to Manly). If you plan to do long passages often, with a time restraint, then maybe this is more relevant. As for pointing higher, again, for racing where 3 -5 degrees is going to make all the difference, then it is important. In most cruising applications it simply isn't.
Yesterday the Surf to City yacht race was held over approx 88NM course largely down wind in 10-15+kts. We ghosted the leading boats over the final 44NM. Black Jack, a Volvo70 averaged 13.5kts. Boss Racing (the recent Brisbane to Gladstone Multihull winner 2011,12) averaged 12.5kts. Several fancied 40-50 light weight cruising cats including several Schonnings generally averaged 8.5-10kts. For comparison, we averaged 7.8kts over 44NM although we chose not to hoist the big ASI using a screecher due to being short on experienced crew. So perhaps we were 2kts slower in those conditions. Maybe we could have reduced this by 0,5-1 kt with the ASI. The point being, we weren't that slow. I'd have a good listen to your wife, as a happy sailing buddy is the most important criteria when boat buying. Sure, think performance, but also think budget, resale, accomodations, galley, comfort, motion at sea, heavy weather comfort and ease of sailing esp. if short handed like I generally am. Your going to come to love what ever you eventually get! Make sure she does too!
Cheers.
I'd suggest the difference between a good performance oriented daggerboard boat and a boat built primarily for charter would be considerably more than 5 minutes in an hour, and much more than 3-5 degrees in pointing ability.
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Old 19-01-2014, 14:35   #11
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re: Mono vs Multi!

Yes - in a push to windward I would think your 44 footer would be significantly quicker both in absolute and VMG terms, particularly in VMG terms, than Second Winds 44 footer. Say a windward work from Cape Moreton to Lady Musgrave, would think there would be better than half a day in it.
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Old 19-01-2014, 16:03   #12
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re: Mono vs Multi!

Quote:
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Yes - in a push to windward I would think your 44 footer would be significantly quicker both in absolute and VMG terms, particularly in VMG terms, than Second Winds 44 footer. Say a windward work from Cape Moreton to Lady Musgrave, would think there would be better than half a day in it.
Agreed! But if 80% of your sailing is not tight to windward, or in a narrow weather window, or over long distances, the quantum of the margin in practlical terms gets less and less. In a coastal cruising context with some flexibility in time, who is going to want to sail tight to the wind bashing into a northerly heading up the Queensland coast, or worse, into a south easter on the way back. And this is especially true for your "sailing buddy"', who might lose interest quickly if this becomes your norm..

There are always faster boats, lighter boats, endless opinion and bias even amongst the most honest and analytical, so in my opinion it comes down to balancing the priorities and honestly considering what you need "most of the time". Then there's that money thing -otherwise we would all be cruising in Gunboats!
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Old 19-01-2014, 16:39   #13
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For living on it for a few months a year, only a true cruising cat with fat hulls will do unless you want to feel like tent camping all the time. Close to windward, if we have to go somewhere fast, we start the engines. Nobody keeps up with us at that point of sail. Preferred direction of travel for comfort is a close reach to run. Close hauled, we wait another day for the wind shift. Wife is a lot happier.
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Old 19-01-2014, 17:20   #14
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For living on it for a few months a year, only a true cruising cat with fat hulls will do unless you want to feel like tent camping all the time. Close to windward, if we have to go somewhere fast, we start the engines. Nobody keeps up with us at that point of sail. Preferred direction of travel for comfort is a close reach to run. Close hauled, we wait another day for the wind shift. Wife is a lot happier.
This is obviously your opinion as it doesn't meet our expectations of cruising. A TRUE cruising cat doesn't have to have fat hulls, a true cruising cat is one that meets your needs and expectations, and your definition of a TRUE cruising cat doesn't coincide with mine. Happy motoring!
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Old 19-01-2014, 23:38   #15
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re: Mono vs Multi!

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Close to windward, if we have to go somewhere fast, we start the engines. Nobody keeps up with us at that point of sail. .
Its hardly a point of sail if you are motoring. And to be frank, 44Cs boat would sail faster in a fair breeze than you would motor.
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