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Old 30-01-2014, 15:59   #61
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I'll be the first to agree the 3 cabins is a stretch but you show the 1 place in the boat that is a little cave like. How about some pictures of the main cabins or the salon for comparison.

As far as loading her down, we do see the performance drop off...down to what a 34' mono would typically be. We've never had an issue with wave slap at anchor as we don't have to anchor in deep water (if there is that much wind blowing that the open anchorages are bouncing bugs aren't much of an issue in the skinny water anyway.)
I actually tried to find the best pic from all the gemini adds to be fair.

Cats just cost more. There is nothing wrong with that. You need to pay more for a premium product.

I done a comparison like this before here where its easy to show a new (at the time) lagoon 400 has less space than the Jeanneau 53 and would obviously be MUCH slower, yet the L400 is was more expensive. I done these sorts of comparisons for my own research as I would like to own a cat. I am not trying to say monos are better. They are not better. However they are usually more cost effective as can easily be shown in the link below.

What are the Slowest Cats?

How much do you need to spend for a CAT that sails better and has more space than a J53?
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Old 30-01-2014, 17:13   #62
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I prefer a cat too. I've owned a few including a Stiletto 27 and an Edel 35. I sold the Edel and bought an Ericson 38. The Edel was a much better boat than the Gemini, faster, carried more, and while it did slap at times, it was way better.

Yet we sold it for over $75k and bought the Ericson for under $55k. We liked the E38 much more. More comfortable in a seaway, carried more stuff and was a faster sailer on all points except blast reaching in flat water. We have had the Edel cat up to 12.5k in flat water where the Ericson we never saw more than 9k surfing. Well, once we saw 14 on the Ericson's gps but we were sailing pretty hot coming out of the pass at Little Farmers Cay and the current must have been going our way at 6.

Still we had a 12ft Avon and 15hp Yamaha on the davits of the Ericson, 120 gals of water, 60 of fuel, ship's stores of over 300lbs (not including rum) plus dive compressor, three big anchors and rode.

Compared to the Edel 35 with a 9ft AB dink, 3hp motor, Yamaha generator, 25 gals of water, 15 gals of fuel, two anchors, stores of maybe 100 lbs.

Both had cruising chutes, the Edel dink was carried on the tramp. Both had fridges but the Ericson had hot water, ssb, 200+ amp hours of house bank, more storage and a diesel. The Edel had 100 watts of solar cells, the Ericson 140 watts.

Yes the Ericson drew 5 ft loaded, the Edel 3.5 ft but except for one anchorage that I can recall, we anchored in the same places.

Still if I had the money, say $150k or more, I'd go for maybe an Athena 38 or (dreaming) a Cassamance 44 although the newer Leopards look pretty nice. Guess I'll have to start playing the lottery.
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Old 30-01-2014, 19:34   #63
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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----once we saw 14 on the Ericson's gps but we were sailing pretty hot coming out of the pass at Little Farmers Cay and the current must have been going our way at 6.
----
Ron -There must have been a little pucker factor going out of Little Farmers at that speed. At least you were through the narrow part quickly lol.
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Old 31-01-2014, 02:34   #64
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

It has taken me a while to read through the lot of this.
I, too, prefer monos, but for me it is a question of past experience, all in monos, so that I would hope to have a huge learning curve to sail a cat efficiently...but what if I didn't? Scary.

We almost bought a cat when we got this boat, and it was the learning curve issue, plus a couple of deal stoppers (Volvo engines and saildrives, rather than shafts) on the cat, vs. the Nanni diesel and shaft drive, excellence of build of this particular boat,and familiarity that decided us. Why throw away 30 years sailing experience? I felt concerned that my reflex strategies would be all wrong.

FWIW, eh?

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Old 31-01-2014, 03:21   #65
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

The differences between sailing a cat and sailing a mono are really not that big. You certainly wouldn't be throwing away your experience. A couple of weeks and the cat would be second nature.
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Old 31-01-2014, 09:26   #66
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

If you only compare price/space ratios and sailing performance, IMO, you're overlooking one of the best features of a cat - stability at anchor (where you are 95% of the time)! Head for the Exumas in the winter/spring and watch the boats anchored in the lee of those islands. With the swells wrapping around the islands, all the monohulls/trawlers will be rocking severely, but the cats sitting nice and flat/stable. I actually got seasick visiting a friend for happy hour on his monohull while at anchor! Could not stay down in the dungeon with it rocking, had to get up in the cockpit.
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Old 31-01-2014, 18:46   #67
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
The differences between sailing a cat and sailing a mono are really not that big. You certainly wouldn't be throwing away your experience. A couple of weeks and the cat would be second nature.
If the truth be known there is a huge difference between sailing monohulls like the H28 my Dad had when I was in junior high school and the Abaco schooner my Dad had when I was in senior high school; and even more of a difference with the SORC monohulls I crewed on. While I have never been on a Gunboat I would bet there is a huge difference between how it sails compared to my Seawind. Also a difference between cats like a Seawind and what I call the condo catamarans.

While it is not a catamaran I would pay real coin of the realm to sail on Bank Pop, and am sure it sails very differently than any of the boats mentioned.

But the bottom line is a well designed cruising cat or well designed cruising mono should be easy to sail even if you had to switch between the two.

But I have to say my experience has been when I drop the hook cats have a big advantage.
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Old 01-02-2014, 00:26   #68
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

Have a look at Beneteau Sense and the latest large Jenneau offerings. Obviously a considered response to the benefits of multis from both mono manufacturers.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:41   #69
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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Have a look at Beneteau Sense and the latest large Jenneau offerings. Obviously a considered response to the benefits of multis from both mono manufacturers.
It is always fun to see mono guys try and compare what most folks would call fast monos to condomarans. But comparing those two monos to something like a Lagoon or FP is like comparing apples to hand gernades. Nothing wrong with the two lines of monos you posted about. But they both are more or less in the price range of an Outremer 45, and the newer 45 squared is only a little more.

While the monos will be able to carry more load the Outremer with a big solar array and a water maker would be a blue water long range cruiser I would find very comfortable.

Especially when I was able to probably double the speed of those monos under almost all conditions.

At lots of price points monohulls can offer lots more than equivalent cats, but once you get close to half a million dollars US it is hard to find a mono that will come close to the speed a cat will offer.

While I am very happy with my Seawind, and what it offers at the price point, the only time I have had second thoughts was when I saw a home built F39 in the harbor. This was a very well built boat with lots of creature comforts and very capable of speeds over 20knots, if you had the crew to drive the boat.

However if I was going past 40 degrees North or South I would feel safer on a steel hull mono.
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Old 01-02-2014, 14:27   #70
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

A little factual information always helps.

I can compare cats and those two because I own one (FP Orana) and I have stayed on another (Sense).

Have you ever priced the new Outremer 45. I have, and it is around 50% higher than an equivalent Sense AND I cannot stand up in the hulls. A better analogy would be an Outremer 51 which is around 50% more than a Sense 55.

Either mono can cruise at 9 knots. If you cruise in your Seawind at 18 knots then you obviously have an alternative power source.

I was not advocating these monos, but merely making the point that the major manufacturers are now responding to the space availability of cats.

I believe that there are solid arguments for cats but increasingly liveability is becoming less of an argument in that regard.
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Old 01-02-2014, 16:10   #71
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
SNIP
Either mono can cruise at 9 knots. If you cruise in your Seawind at 18 knots then you obviously have an alternative power source.
SNIP
If I was not clear let me correct the idea that my Seawind is what I call a fast catamaran. On the other hand I do consider an Outremer a fast cat and do think it is capable of doubling most monos speed.

While livability is somewhat of a subjective term I would point out that the Seawind100xl has a day sail capacity of 20 passengers. The huge open deck area and open saloon/cockpit provides lots of room for lots of folks. I find mine very livable.
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Old 01-02-2014, 17:11   #72
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
A little factual information always helps.

Either mono can cruise at 9 knots. If you cruise in your Seawind at 18 knots then you obviously have an alternative power source.

.
Does wind count?
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Old 02-02-2014, 16:02   #73
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

Quote:
It is always fun to see mono guys try and compare what most folks would call fast monos to condomarans. But comparing those two monos to something like a Lagoon or FP is like comparing apples to hand gernades. Nothing wrong with the two lines of monos you posted about. But they both are more or less in the price range of an Outremer 45, and the newer 45 squared is only a little more.
Fast mono? No fast monos have been mentioned. Just charter monos which are the equivalent to a more expensive, less spacious and much slower charter catamaran.

The Outremers are awesome boats. I would love to own one of those for sure! But I certainly do not agree they are comparable price wise, and probably not accommodation wise. However, finally you can say they will outsail the mono! So this is a comparison between a slow charter mono and a fast cat.

O45 $632K 2014 Outremer 45 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale - au.yachtworld.com

Outremer Catamaran - Our Catamarans - Outremer 45






B55 sense $528K 2014 Beneteau Sense 55 Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

Sense 55 / Sense / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU



In this particular instance, If I had 528 grand I could probably afford the 632k and buy the Outremer anyway! But it would probably be less spacious and certianly more expensive but I would not care since the outremer is so awesome

I could not be bothered doing a scale MS paint of the 2 boats this time to compare space.
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Old 02-02-2014, 16:29   #74
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

This is the problem with surfing the internet rather than serious investigation.

Basically, these prices are bogus. Outremer starts at a base price that includes nothing. Add at least 50% if you want a base level boat and 100% if you want the absolute performance model (carbon bulkheads, rotating carbon mast/boom, hydronet sails etc.

On the other hand you could get a well equipped Sense for around $600K.

In short for base level versions the O45 would be about 50% more than the Sense.

I repeat that I am not interested in a monohull and I will more than likely buy an Outremer, but the facts are that a good multi is and always will be considerably more expensive than a good mono. If you believe in the advantages of a multi over a mono then you will have to pay a significant amount for it.
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Old 02-02-2014, 17:22   #75
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Re: Mono vs Multi!

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
This is the problem with surfing the internet rather than serious investigation.

Basically, these prices are bogus. Outremer starts at a base price that includes nothing. Add at least 50% if you want a base level boat and 100% if you want the absolute performance model (carbon bulkheads, rotating carbon mast/boom, hydronet sails etc.

On the other hand you could get a well equipped Sense for around $600K.

In short for base level versions the O45 would be about 50% more than the Sense.

I repeat that I am not interested in a monohull and I will more than likely buy an Outremer, but the facts are that a good multi is and always will be considerably more expensive than a good mono. If you believe in the advantages of a multi over a mono then you will have to pay a significant amount for it.
Mostly agree with this but I would point out most boat sales are for used boats, not new ones.

While I only looked at catamarans when I bought my boat I suspect that just as I found a lot more catamarans in poor shape than in good shape the same would be true if I was looking at monohulls.

There also seems to be a lack of agreement on just what the advantages of different boats. The posted images do show something like a Bene has bigger staterooms than most catamarans do. Probably same for a tri. On the other hand a most catamarans would have a lot more deck space. Some catamarans like the Seawinds have a huge saloon/cockpit semi enclosed/enclosed space that only a much larger monohull could match.

For coastal and short island crossings like Florida Keys and the Bahamas where most of the time would probably be spent above decks and catamarans big deck space would be an advantage to some. On the other hand if you were sailing where it was cold and possibly rainy or doing rough crossings a monohull might well have an advantage.

While catamarans would normally be thought of as having a significantly higher top end speed my experience has been when the wind is really light, as it often is in Florida and the Bahamas catamarans will often be sailing while monohulls have the engines on. There is also the issue of many catamarans drawing around half of what a monohull draws, a big advantage where I sail but maybe not so much in other areas.

To me it is not so much a question of which is better a mono or a multi; rather which one suits your needs better.
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