Modern cats

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smj

Gotta disagree. Sailing is the art of moving a vessel through the water with sails being driven by the wind, period. A condo cat and a performance boat both sail, just one better than the other. A condo cat and a performance boat both cruise, once again one does it better than the other. If you have enough money you can afford a boat that excels at both sailing and cruising. I'm pretty sure you will disagree with what I've said[emoji38]

I don't understand in what you disagree with what I said and I agree with what you say but the point is that a condocat maximizes interior space at the cost of sail performance and certainly you agree with that too.

The problem here is that money is in on the short side for most so you cannot take it out of the equation in what regards interior space or sail performance.

In what regards performance cats and cruising there is also the factor of safety. Due to capsize risk in gusts, to be on the safe side you need or a good big crew or a really big cat (more money) even if you don't need the extra space for cruising. Several capsizes on the last years of performance cruising cats reinforce this idea as well as the growing of very unstable weather patterns with the increase of sudden violent wind phenomena.

For having a really safe cruising cat of reasonable dimension (less than 50ft) you need the weight of a condocat. It is not only about money but also about size and weight and size can be a limiting factor in what regards cruising, with many small ports with no space for a 50ft cat.

[44'cruisingcat]

Rubbish. All it takes to keep a more performance oriented cat safe is some common sense.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Rubbish. All it takes to keep a more performance oriented cat safe is some common sense.

And the two of the cats that capsized recently were ones with an inside helm. Perhaps it’s the crew that messed up as they weren’t outside to see what was going on and were relying more on instruments?

My performance cat requires less sail area to continue at relative high speeds - mostly with a reef or even two ahead of the reefing guide - so that provides more safety margin. Common sense and comfort meet!

A boat requiring full rig to continue moving will be more at risk due to lower safety margin.

But seriously, let’s not turn this into a capsizing catamaran discussion. The risk of capsizing a cruising catamaran, condomaran or otherwise, is vanishingly small. There’s a recent insurance thread that makes just that point - cruising is very low risk. Assuming some common sense so as not to increase risk factors.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

For having a really safe cruising cat of reasonable dimension (less than 50ft) you need the weight of a condocat. It is not only about money but also about size and weight and size can be a limiting factor in what regards cruising, with many small ports with no space for a 50ft cat.

Rubbish. Weight is not your friend, a lighter cat wont blow over easier in gusts it will accelerate. yes you need to be aware but no multihull designer in history would agree that heavy is best. NONE

[daletournier]

The more comfortable we are the longer we are likely to cruise IMO, Ive heard people call my boat a performance cruiser but its all relative as it wouldn't stand a chance against Polux's boat or Cc44's, yet around the condo cats shes reasonably fast even fully loaded, but "fast sailing" is an oxymoron, i think I'm flying at 8.5k..lol.

Mine could be called a Condo mono i suppose...lol. It has seven foot headroom , microwave and I'll be adding a washing machine next year, I like a good shower, used 600 liters of water last week, yes pathetic i know!

Cruising for me is moving my home to different places and thats what the sails are for, the enjoyment from the sailing is secondary although i must admit I'm really enjoying the sailing in flat water clear waters of the Seychelles, small hops just the way i like it.

Condocats are popular and will become more popular for good reason, they are extremely comfortable living, they do sail and you can take them around the world, i witness this...travelling in comfort! why not?

Definitions get messy, trying to pidgeon hole boats and people never works. Im lucky im not a sailor ,can't get offended when people recognize im just not that salty.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

Rubbish. Weight is not your friend, a lighter cat wont blow over easier in gusts it will accelerate. yes you need to be aware but no multihull designer in history would agree that heavy is best. NONE

Yes weight is your friend in what regards capsizing risk on a cat. Weight counts two times for stability, beam one.

Look at all those cruising cats that have capsized on the last two years, they have a thing in common: they were all light performance cruisers.

On the same period 0 capsizes with condocats and for each performance cruisers there are probably 20 condocats (or more).

Statistically that means that the odds of capsizing a performance cat are hugely superior than the ones of capsizing a same length heavy condo cat.

Regarding cat designers not agreeing that a heavy cat is safer, well Marc Lombard, one of the greatest designs of our time (monohulls and cats) bought recently a cat for cruising with the family, a condo cat. When asked why he said that downwind is fast and that performance cats are not suited for tranquil family cruising due to capsize increased risks.

This does not mean that I am saying that performance cats are dangerous, they are what they are and if I chose to have a cat it would be a performance one (because I like sportive boats and sportive sailing) but facts remain facts and the risk of capsize on a performance cat is hugely superior than on a condocat. You can be willing to assume the superior risk, or not. We cannot live without taking risks.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The more comfortable we are the longer we are likely to cruise IMO, Ive heard people call my boat a performance cruiser but its all relative as it wouldn't stand a chance against Polux's boat or Cc44's, yet around the condo cats shes reasonably fast even fully loaded, but "fast sailing" is an oxymoron, i think I'm flying at 8.5k..lol.
....
Cruising for me is moving my home to different places and thats what the sails are for, the enjoyment from the sailing is secondary although i must admit I'm really enjoying the sailing in flat water clear waters of the Seychelles, small hops just the way i like it.

Condocats are popular and will become more popular for good reason, they are extremely comfortable living, they do sail and you can take them around the world, i witness this...travelling in comfort! why not?
....

Nice of you to admit that sailing is secondary to you. It is for most cruisers even if many refuse to admit it and that is fundamental in what regards choosing a boat.

The actual main trends in monohull and multihull design show just that: that sailing is secondary to most cruisers..... and therefore the importance that assume the maximization of interior space and you cannot do that without diminishing the sail ability. Fat boats, my daughter called them, when she was 12 year's old.

For me sail and sail pleasure are at least as important as cruising. Even if the place where I am at anchor (90% of the days) is very beautiful I never stay more than 2 days (my wife hates that) for the simple reason that I want to sail and two days is about limit I find tolerable without sailing.

This season I made about 4000km sailing 85% of the time (100 engine hours) and most of the time upwind. If you sail all the time, including with the wind on the nose and weak winds, upwind sailing it will be by far the most common point of sail unless you sail on the trade winds.

There are boats designed for the ones that find cruising and cruising amenities paramount (the majority) and also boats designed for the ones that find sailing as much important (or more) than cruising, being them monohulls or multihulls, but they are a small minority. That minority is correspondent to the minority of the ones that find sailing as important or more than cruising.

To put things even more dificult for those for whom sailing is not secondary, like smj pointed out, performance boats are much more expensive than same length "fat" boats and to have the same interior space you need a bigger performance boat and that means even more expensive. That results that some of those sailors end up with a "fat" boat due to lack of money to have a performance boat with the space they need.

[barnakiel]

This part where you discuss weight is very interesting. Reading both angles we are getting at the more complete picture of how weight affects properties of any craft.

I sometimes design small things. Mostly for the fun of seeing them break 9/10. I think that we should play with toys more when we are kids.

Interestingly, in design, light and heavy can be the same thing. Just think of e.g. Catana's boards or some catboat's water ballast.

Cheers,
b.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by Polux

(because I like sportive boats and sportive sailing)

I thought that was just "sailing" by your definition? Everything else is "cruising", according to you. So what is "sportive sailing"?

None of us know what you're talking about because you don't even know what you're talking about. The definitions change in every post.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

This part where you discuss weight is very interesting. Reading both angles we are getting at the more complete picture of how weight affects properties of any craft.
...
Cheers,
b.

There is a big diference in what regards the relation between weight and stability in cats and monohulls. Cats don't use ballast so the cg location between different cats is not that different unless you go for rare configurations like the one of Sig 45 and even so the diference is not comparable to the diference that can exist between mono hulls.

Because the CG is not that different and the beam ratio on most good cats is
also not very different the stability curve (CG) is approximately similar as well as the dynamic stability with weight being the bigger player on the increase of stability.

On monohulls that is not true, light boats with a big B/D ratio and a big draft have a very different stability curve than the one of a typical mass production cruiser, for instance an Oceanis and they have a much better dynamic stability. The lighter boat can have the same or more stability.

The important factor is the dynamic stability that is related with the GS curve that is independent from weight. Basically for all to understand, two boats with the same overall stability, one heavy and one light (bigger draft, torpedo keel, bigger B/D ratio) can have a completely different GS curve.

Imagine both boats thrown by a wave to a capsize of 90º. On both boats the force that is been made to right the boat is the same, but the light boat only weights half so in fact it is like the force made on the lighter boat is the double of the one on the heavy boat. You can imagine the importance of this, the boat will right itself in half the time while the other can still be exposed on its side to the next wave.

That is why you cannot have a 40ft racing cat attempting a non stop solo circumnavigation record (without taking stupid risks) and you can do that with relative safety on a 40class racer monohull (there is an official record).

That is also why those boats that race the Vendee Globe, IMOCA boats, even if only weighting 8 or 9 tons are among the safest sailing boats on the planet: they have an incredibly good GZ curve and a dynamic stability to match.

On my site I explain all this with more detail.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by Polux

For me sail and sail pleasure are at least as important as cruising. Even if the place where I am at anchor (90% of the days) is very beautiful I never stay more than 2 days (my wife hates that) for the simple reason that I want to sail and two days is about limit I find tolerable without sailing.

You hit the nail on the head... for you. Do you hear how ridiculous you sound to say that everyone else is doing it wrong? That all those people island hopping around the Caribbean aren't "real" sailors because they're focused on cruising? Can't you extrapolate that if a clipper world racer claimed you weren't a real sailor because you had a water maker on board, it would be equally ridiculous?

There is no one right boat. No one right way to sail. It is whatever makes you happy. And each boat is tailored to personal choice. Most cruisers would do fine taking you on in J24s around a course. We all cut our teeth the same way. So to say your way is the only real way not only makes no sense, but doesn't really contribute to the conversation in this thread about modern cats and the balance they are making between speed, comfort, and price. Based on market forces, most people want something different than you want and that's ok.

The whole point of this thread was to look at the changes over time, not to tell us our choices are wrong. Yeah, FPs and Lagoons are bigger, but Outremers, Catanas, and Gunboats still dwarf older cats while performing beautifully because bridge deck slap, pooping the transom, burying bows, and lifting hulls were too common in the older designs. It's interesting to see all the different approaches and then where everyone is in agreement about universal improvements. Part of why I love something as crazy as the X5 is because it's doing so many things differently. And yes, I'm fascinated that a family of 6 can travel the world so safely and comfortably in the french cats while averaging 200kts a day. I saw La Vagabonde hit 22kts, but honestly, I prefer the FPs for quality of life once I've arrived.

[Tornadosailing]

Back to the original point of this thread, I agree, the newer the cat the bigger they are for the same LOA.

I just bought an 08 FP Salina 48, but before I finalized the deal I wanted to go sit in a new Helia 44 just to be sure. While we were there we walked to the next dock and stood next to the new Saona 47. LOA is more than a foot shorter than the Salina, helm at the same position and height relative to the deck etc. Holy crap that Saona looked HUGE!! I don't know if it's the squared off styling or higher freeboard, but damn it looked big compared to the 48. It would be interesting to park next to it just to see the difference from one design to the next in the same manufacturer.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Thalas

You hit the nail on the head... for you. Do you hear how ridiculous you sound to say that everyone else is doing it wrong? That all those people island hopping around the Caribbean aren't "real" sailors because they're focused on cruising? Can't you extrapolate that if a clipper world racer claimed you weren't a real sailor because you had a water maker on board, it would be equally ridiculous?

There is no one right boat. No one right way to sail. ....

You should be confusing me with someone else. On that partial quote I was talking about one type of cruisers among two types, namely the ones to whom sailing is as important or more than cruising. On the full post that you quoted partially that results clear, I mean the two types, being the other the ones for whom cruising is more important than sailing being sailing secondary to cruising.

That was on the following of a post of Daletournier that was including himself on the second group. I was saying that I belong to the other one, a smaller one. No right or wrong regarding belonging to one or another, just a matter of personal taste and things we value more in life.

There are boats specifically designed for each group of sailors and being the group to whom sailing is secondary to cruising much bigger the main trends on boat design, the boats built in bigger number (by far), responds basically to that with a design criteria that maximize interior space, cruising amenities in detriment of sailing potential, monohulls and multihulls alike.

I was not talking about real sailors or fake sailors and the boat designs are good or bad when they respond to the needs of the cruisers whatever they are and that means that obviously there is not a right boat to all.

Buf off course, some cruisers are designed to sail better, some are designed to have a good balance between sailing and motoring and others are designed to use exclusively an engine.

There are cruisers that prefer each of these types of boats but the ones that like sailing more or as much as cruising prefer to have a boat that is designed to sail better and will go further on the compromise that such a boat represents towards less interior space, less cruising amenities in exchange for better sailing potential. It would not be logical if they would prefer another type of boat.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by PhiSig1071

I thought that was just "sailing" by your definition? Everything else is "cruising", according to you. So what is "sportive sailing"?

None of us know what you're talking about because you don't even know what you're talking about. The definitions change in every post.

I hope some know what I am talking about, it would be sad if not. Sportive sailing means obviously sailing as a sport, for the pleasure of it.

Sportive boats are easy to identify, they are lighter, faster and some are designed as dual purpose boats, for cruising and racing.

When they are designed as cruisers (they can be pure racers) they take the compromise between cruising space/cruising amenities and sail potential much more towards sail potential and that results in a smaller interior and a smaller freeboard.

Another difference is all the expensive sail hardware that allows on a sports boat the sails to be perfectly tuned, just for the pleasure of sailing better even if that translates only in half a knot more of speed.

No sportive boats have a much cheaper and less complex sail hardware that does not allow a perfect sail tune but only a reasonable one.

Sportive sailing is about a precision and frequent tuning of the sails.
No sportive sailing is about going mostly on autopilot with an approximate sail tuning (anyway that type of boat does not allow a better sail tuning).

No sportive sailing is a mean to an end: cruising. Sportive sailing is a mean in itself, it is done just for the pleasure of it.

Clear now?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Polux

I hope some know what I am talking about, it would be sad if not. Sportive sailing means obviously sailing as a sport, for the pleasure of it.

Sportive boats are easy to identify, they are lighter, faster and some are designed as dual purpose boats, for cruising and racing.

When they are designed as cruisers (they can be pure racers) they take the compromise between cruising space/cruising amenities and sail potential much more towards sail potential and that results in a smaller interior and a smaller freeboard.

Another difference is all the expensive sail hardware that allows on a sports boat the sails to be perfectly tuned, just for the pleasure of sailing better even if that translates only in half a knot more of speed.

No sportive boats have a much cheaper and less complex sail hardware that does not allow a perfect sail tune but only a reasonable one.

Sportive sailing is about a precision and frequent tuning of the sails.
No sportive sailing is about going mostly on autopilot with an approximate sail tuning (anyway that type of boat does not allow a better sail tuning).

No sportive sailing is a mean to an end: cruising. Sportive sailing is a mean in itself, it is done just for the pleasure of it.

Clear now?

Polux, you're far from the only one. I fully identify with the above. For me, I feel ill at ease when the boat's out of tune, or her trim's off, etc. And if somethings wrong, or the weather changes, etc. I wake up & go have a look.

Sailing when done right means that you're not on the boat as a passenger, nor even as her "master", but rather as her partner, & an integral part of her performing well (& in harmony with you). So that when she's moving along at her best you're at ease, & the opposite is true when she's not.

I'd rather have the space & amenities of a 30'er in a 40' race bred hull, than a 30'er stuffed to the gills with creature comforts & too many bunks (most of them unusable at sea). This is true be it a multi or a mono.

One year, when I was in my 20's, & on the water full time. I flew home to see my dad, & spend some time on the Great Lakes with him. In my luggage was a spinnaker, & a block for a topping lift. Both of which it turns out he needed, though I'd "no way of knowing" this. And that year the winds were extraordinarily light, so the kite made a world of difference. Once I put it up we were doing wind speed in 5kts of breeze, & he was happier than a kid on Christmas morning.

In those moments when the sail was up, & we were reaching along in what normally would have been drifting conditions, in stifling heat, all of the frustrations of prepping the boat, & stepping her spar, etc. slipped away. And he was in tune with things.

Some people never fully get the rythym of things on the water, others enjoy it for brief moments or hours, & some of us full on live for it.
It's kind of like when you're the Officer of The Watch on a big ship, & just as you're about to call the Captain to inform him of a possible problem, he steps onto the bridge... Because he's in tune with the rythym of the ship, & the sea. He "gets it".