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Old 04-12-2014, 15:41   #1
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Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Hello Cruising Friends,
I appreciate your views and opinions..

I am reasonably experienced in my 60's, fit, Wife too, 40+ year sailing. I presently own a 2013 Helia 44... It is the best value for money, largest live aboard and performance, most User Friendly Cat in the world IMO. I am better off financially to sell it here and take Delivery up there.. My first candidate was a SABA 50, for Delivery in the Med, Maestro Version, so my three Children and possibly Mates, could come and do part of all of the Mediterranean and Caribbean, because there are 3 queen staterooms plus the spacious Owners where my Helia only has two plus Owners. Further the Saba is just a Helia on steroids, and the layout is probably the most user friendly in the world... However, my plans hit a snag as I was planning on seeing the SABA 50 in Australia at the Sanctuary Cove Show, and it turns out to be the six cabin Charter layout... I am back to square one, so what other boat am I missing out on if I have to fly to a big Show somewhere?

Please tell me what other (new or nearly new boat, my days of rebuilding boats are over), what Cat I should consider, I mean am I missing out on one? To be fair, here is what I have narrowed down the choices to, and please do not be offended or feel the need to defend you boat as this is just my personal opinion OK?
Main Contenders so far:

1) Lagoons, somehow I cannot get over the blunt front windows, and IMO the reputation over the past 10 years is not as good as the Fountaine Pajot.. Sorry, the way it is for me, I might look at a large Show but......

2) Leopards, 44 is too small. Unfortunately I have studied the new 48 twice, and it is not really any bigger feel than the Helia 44, because of that (wasted for me) huge front cockpit that could even be a liability, and I could not get over that 6'1 I could not see the port hull AT ALL because of the overhand. It would be tough on docking and such, any way not big enough because of the cockpit in front...

3) Catana 50: I am 6'1", my Son is 6'3", and the rest of the family is large.. I have only seen pictures and not had the opportunity to go aboard a Catana 50, but several reliable sources have told the cabins and berths are tight, very tight. Further I cannot live with the stern outboard helms... With my Marine Engineering experience and study, I am positive the Catana is the strongest, most fit for circumnavigation of the these three French Cats, in about this order of Lagoon, F.P, then Catana. But I need more creature comfort, the tight interior, lack of visibility through bridge deck, outboard helms, these wreck it for me..

4) F.P. SABA 50, seemed to be the best value for money... Now I have to fly somewhere in the world to see the Maestro Version and sail one to be sure. If I am going to have to do that, maybe I should go to the biggest boat show in the world.. Would that be the Show in France? My Helia 44 would do the job, but by the time I get it to the Med, the sales here and Delivery there would put me into a new and larger boat. I am not into taking it there myself... There is also financial gain to take Delivery in the Med, and returning a second hand boat to Australia, without the details trust me I could get a new and larger boat Delivery in Med or Carib..

So Cruising Friends, I have not been to the Annapolis Show or the big French Show, what am I missing out on that I should consider?

I really love my Helia 44, but it is here, and my options are open to go larger with the Kids. I looked in the mirror and shocked at that old person that took my place . I am running out of time long before I will run out of money. I thought a year in the Med and a year in the Carib would be a great way to spend some quality time with my three Children and maybe leave them more of the Cruising Passion for Life...

Kind regards, Helia 44 "AVALON"
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Old 04-12-2014, 16:23   #2
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helia 44 View Post
Hello Cruising Friends,
I appreciate your views and opinions..

I am reasonably experienced in my 60's, fit, Wife too, 40+ year sailing. I presently own a 2013 Helia 44... It is the best value for money, largest live aboard and performance, most User Friendly Cat in the world IMO. I am better off financially to sell it here and take Delivery up there.. My first candidate was a SABA 50, for Delivery in the Med, Maestro Version, so my three Children and possibly Mates, could come and do part of all of the Mediterranean and Caribbean, because there are 3 queen staterooms plus the spacious Owners where my Helia only has two plus Owners. Further the Saba is just a Helia on steroids, and the layout is probably the most user friendly in the world... However, my plans hit a snag as I was planning on seeing the SABA 50 in Australia at the Sanctuary Cove Show, and it turns out to be the six cabin Charter layout... I am back to square one, so what other boat am I missing out on if I have to fly to a big Show somewhere?

Please tell me what other (new or nearly new boat, my days of rebuilding boats are over), what Cat I should consider, I mean am I missing out on one? To be fair, here is what I have narrowed down the choices to, and please do not be offended or feel the need to defend you boat as this is just my personal opinion OK?
Main Contenders so far:

1) Lagoons, somehow I cannot get over the blunt front windows, and IMO the reputation over the past 10 years is not as good as the Fountaine Pajot.. Sorry, the way it is for me, I might look at a large Show but......

2) Leopards, 44 is too small. Unfortunately I have studied the new 48 twice, and it is not really any bigger feel than the Helia 44, because of that (wasted for me) huge front cockpit that could even be a liability, and I could not get over that 6'1 I could not see the port hull AT ALL because of the overhand. It would be tough on docking and such, any way not big enough because of the cockpit in front...

3) Catana 50: I am 6'1", my Son is 6'3", and the rest of the family is large.. I have only seen pictures and not had the opportunity to go aboard a Catana 50, but several reliable sources have told the cabins and berths are tight, very tight. Further I cannot live with the stern outboard helms... With my Marine Engineering experience and study, I am positive the Catana is the strongest, most fit for circumnavigation of the these three French Cats, in about this order of Lagoon, F.P, then Catana. But I need more creature comfort, the tight interior, lack of visibility through bridge deck, outboard helms, these wreck it for me..

4) F.P. SABA 50, seemed to be the best value for money... Now I have to fly somewhere in the world to see the Maestro Version and sail one to be sure. If I am going to have to do that, maybe I should go to the biggest boat show in the world.. Would that be the Show in France? My Helia 44 would do the job, but by the time I get it to the Med, the sales here and Delivery there would put me into a new and larger boat. I am not into taking it there myself... There is also financial gain to take Delivery in the Med, and returning a second hand boat to Australia, without the details trust me I could get a new and larger boat Delivery in Med or Carib..

So Cruising Friends, I have not been to the Annapolis Show or the big French Show, what am I missing out on that I should consider?

I really love my Helia 44, but it is here, and my options are open to go larger with the Kids. I looked in the mirror and shocked at that old person that took my place . I am running out of time long before I will run out of money. I thought a year in the Med and a year in the Carib would be a great way to spend some quality time with my three Children and maybe leave them more of the Cruising Passion for Life...

Kind regards, Helia 44 "AVALON"
Catana 50 is discontinued. Used is the only option.

But the Catana 53 is promissing. Albeit announced more then a year ago and still no pictures.

Rob
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Old 04-12-2014, 16:34   #3
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helia 44 View Post
With my Marine Engineering experience and study, I am positive the Catana is the strongest, most fit for circumnavigation of the these three French Cats, in about this order of Lagoon, F.P, then Catana.
With your "Marine Engineering experience and study" you should know that Lagoon, FP and the other mass production boats built primarily for the charter trade are not in the same class as Catana, Outremer, Privilege, and a few others. Get beyond the charter boats and get a quality sailing machine if you have the budget. The Saba 50 is just another FP. I expect it's built like an FP. You need to decide if you want a quality sailing machine or a charter boat. If you're as happy with the Helia as you state, forget the more expensive boats as you don't need the extra sophistication and won't miss it.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 04-12-2014, 18:05   #4
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Hello Multihull,

Thank you for the considered response on the rumored Catana 53, but I am Blessed to have a 14 meter dock on 400 mm Pilings, behind my house. With legal setbacks of 1.5 Metres from the property line both ends, I am only allowed 15.1 Metres or 49.54 feet... That is why I am trying to stay at/under the 50' for when I get back home... Larger and I am up for an additional $25,000 a year in Marina slip fees with bad parking, and the loss of the convenience of behind the house...

2 Hulls Dave,

Sorry, but for my taste the new Founetain Pajots are built quite well. Yes the Catana has kevlar and carbon fibre and is better for long ocean passages, Cape of Good Hope/ Cape Horn, and hitting floating containers or something. But for short passages in the Med and Carib and inter island in the South Pacific, IMO the Fountain Pajot of the Helia Class and up in the last two years has come of age.. I beg to disagree with you, the F.P. of the last couple of years have REALLY lifted their game, and are the best value for money in both layout and performance. Maybe you should crawl around the inner reaches and access panels of one, as I think your opinion is not up with the last two years.. You said "I expect" in your judgement, I would suggest you should see the last two years and breakthrough they have made. Look, years ago, I would have agreed with you, but now I think they are a different "Breed of Cat".. Really, have a look, Fountaine Pajot have broken new ground beyond the French Charter boat.. I put them now in their own Class, halfway between Lagoon and Catana, and with the most live able layouts.. I have even been racing mine. In my 40 year experience with boats, fixing up major yachts for a Business, and my Engineering experience, you do not need to go further than the late model Fountaine Pajot unless you are circumnavigating the globe and venturing into the "Roaring Forties" type of thing.

Here in Australia, to be fair, I have not seen an Outreemer or Privelege... Are they in the ballpark?


Kind regards... Helia 44 "AVALON"
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:11   #5
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Steve

Unless you have a pressing need to passage the Atlantic or Pacific you perhaps should consider chartering. There are companies which allow taking a boat anywhere in the Med provided you can demonstrate appropriate experience. Almost new boats like the Helia are available. I am sure the Saba will come up soon. I have done the numbers and considering the inconvenience and buy/sell spread chartering makes real financial sense.

Certainly, that is what I will be doing.

As far as alternatives the Privilege offers a step up. Imagine the one you saw at the Sydney Boat Show but smaller. There is one at Mooloolaba now if you care to have a look. Unless you want to have a step up in performance (speed) Catana and Outremer do not offer you anything at 50' or less. The 5X is too big. The Tag 50 is something you might consider when it eventually sees the light of day.
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:40   #6
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

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Steve

Unless you have a pressing need to passage the Atlantic or Pacific you perhaps should consider chartering. There are companies which allow taking a boat anywhere in the Med provided you can demonstrate appropriate experience. Almost new boats like the Helia are available. I am sure the Saba will come up soon. I have done the numbers and considering the inconvenience and buy/sell spread chartering makes real financial sense.

Certainly, that is what I will be doing.
Have you actually run the numbers? I mean cost for long term Charter, and the fact that my Helia would be sitting here depreciating for the two years... That depreciation is one thing, but even more serious is the potential for importing a "second hand new boat" back to Oz.. ???

I had not actually run the numbers, but thought that there would be tax advantages to taking Delivery in the Med and two years later importing a second hand vessel to Australia.. Taking that into account plus the cost of long term Charter in the Med?? You might know better, but I mean two years later, I thought it would roughly work out to ending up with a larger vessel like the SABA 50, at a discount with the long term charter costs put towards ownership????

On the Privilege, at the Sydney Show it was a privilege to even SEE such a gorgeous work of art... However, I was told by a few sources that all that beautiful hardwood interior and inlay and extra fibreglass, meant that the "Privilege" in general besides waaaaay expensive, were very heavy and because of that pretty much slow... I do not know for myself, was just told that from some that had sailed the few. Because of that high end and rarity and heavy weight, I did not consider them in the running?

Helia 44 "AVALON"
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Old 04-12-2014, 19:56   #7
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

My assumption is that you would not want to be sailing in the Med out of season, and you would return to Australia.

A more important question is "Are you going to sell the business?". If not then you will want to return from time to time.

Yes, you save on Sales Tax and Duty but you also have a significantly depreciated boat after such a journey. On a new Helia for instance, assuming no exchange rate fluctuations, and allowing for the Stamp Duty and GST savings, typically you are looking at around $100-150K loss for the experience. Most people see this as value for money for a few years holiday.

If your plans are to sell the business, live on the boat in the Med and Carribean for a few years, then fair enough.

If your plans are to sail in the Med for a few months, sail in the Carribean for a few months, and regularly return to Australia, then that is a different story.

I am in the latter category.

Simply food for thought.
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Old 04-12-2014, 20:11   #8
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
My assumption is that you would not want to be sailing in the Med out of season, and you would return to Australia.

A more important question is "Are you going to sell the business?". If not then you will want to return from time to time.

Yes, you save on Sales Tax and Duty but you also have a significantly depreciated boat after such a journey. On a new Helia for instance, assuming no exchange rate fluctuations, and allowing for the Stamp Duty and GST savings, typically you are looking at around $100-150K loss for the experience. Most people see this as value for money for a few years holiday.

If your plans are to sell the business, live on the boat in the Med and Carribean for a few years, then fair enough.

If your plans are to sail in the Med for a few months, sail in the Carribean for a few months, and regularly return to Australia, then that is a different story.

I am in the latter category.

Simply food for thought.
Not arguing here, but does it swing my favour considering these points:
Beside that I am not getting any younger...

1) Take my Business out of the equation and please do not mention it on this Forum as it is unrelated, I have a Partner could leave it in current management or sell it... Not related...

2) Take Depreciation out of the picture, as I would have that on EITHER boat here with the Helia 44 as it is in the prime first four years of depreciation, or there with the ______ 50.. ... hmmmmm

3) I hate flying, and thought Cruising in the Med was tenable 8-9 months out of the year as a Lifestyle?? Baring something unforeseen I was thinking the longer term and not shorter visits... Maybe even leaving the Med just before winter and going straight to the Carib which is very tenable in winter..?

So, for your more short tripping your advice is probably financially correct. Given the above though, does it swing back in my favour and I end up with a discounted "new boat" in some 50' like the Saba, or Leopard or _______ something, Delivered to the Med... ??? It is always good to get another perspective, but sharpening the pencil I thought it was cheaper to sell the Helia here in a year or two and import the new boat, although like I said I have not run the numbers and am assuming.....

Kind regards, Helia 44
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Old 05-12-2014, 09:57   #9
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Agreed the FP is very well built. Crossed the North Atlantic east to west against the wind, survived two major hurricanes. Super strong, comfortable, sailing ability and good speed, oh and good looks.
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Old 05-12-2014, 15:19   #10
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Hi Helia 44,

All in all, I would think Saba 50 is the best option for you.

I've sailed with Outremer 51; very fast boat but not a very good cruiser for couple reasons;
-very little pay load and the moment you start loading, she's slower than Catana (probably still faster than Saba tough)
-to get the maximum out of the boat, you need to trim all the time, not my style in long passages with my wife.. The one I was on, had best sails possible, rotating mast, etc..
-offers very little space for 51 ft boat

New Catana's of this size should be significantly more expensive than Saba. I have a quotation for a new Catana 47. Without exagerating the extras, you cross the 1 Mio Eoro line..

No experience with Privilege, they are supposed to be well built, solid but heavy cats.

If you don't lilke Leopards (which I don't either) there aren't much left..

You may want to look at Nauthitech, they make good boats, faster than FP's but a bit more expensive.

As far as the boat shows go, forget Paris and Dusseldorf. Cannes is much better. There is also another one at La Motte just for cats that I haven't been too yet.

Good luck

Yeloya
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Old 05-12-2014, 15:43   #11
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

What about the brands made in AUS ? is non of them any good ?
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Old 05-12-2014, 19:13   #12
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Hello Careka, Built in Oz? We only have about 19 million people... Not a lot built here.. There is the LightWave 45, but it is only in a second place compared to say the Helia 44... Most built here are one off's, and the Builders would have done 37 things differently had the been able to do it over, or corrected things by hull #3... You just have to bare with living with the mistakes. I wanted a Production boat from a larger Company for those reasons...
************************************************** ****

Mirelos, "
You wrote: Agreed the FP is very well built. Crossed the North Atlantic east to west against the wind, survived two major hurricanes. Super strong, comfortable, sailing ability and good speed, oh and good looks.

You sound very switched on Mirelos, agree 100%, and I am experienced as well...

************************************************** *********

Hello Yeloya, I do not disagree in any way, but before I started to get motivated in serious travel to see the options, I just wanted to make sure there was nothing I was missing out on...

Yelola, this is not a brag but: It looks like I do have good taste, besides owning what after my study is the best value for money for a Couple in a new boat in the HELIA 44.. the SABA 50 just won "Best Sailboat of the Year" award...

http://www.sailmagazine.com/best-boats/best-boats-2015-fountaine-pajot-saba-50#.VHSYCFtF4Hc.facebook

I did not fall of a turnip truck to land up here with the Helia 44, best value for money in a new Yacht, it still cannot be beat for Cruising a reasonable performance.. .. And it looks like the Helia 44 on Steroids (my original saying) the SABA 50 is hard to beat.... I was, and am, looking for what else is out there before I commit to like a two year ahead plan....

Kind regards, Helia 44



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Old 06-12-2014, 01:03   #13
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

have you looked at these ? Wilderness 1500X

they also have diff types in your size,
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Old 06-12-2014, 01:44   #14
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

i like this one, G-Force 1500C

i se there is one being built, that is for sale. or you can build one in Holland or france, if you want to do the Med and than to Carib. and on home.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:07   #15
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

The Isara 50 looked real nice at the Annapolis boat show. Well thought out, great visibility all around.
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