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Old 07-12-2014, 17:53   #16
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Thank you all,
That gives us a couple of more to consider...

We will just have to wait for a Show that has these major contenders on display.. The SABA 50 "Maestro" layout, from Annapolis, is in the British Virgins, we may consider flying in there, or we have to wait for a Show that has one...

Thank you for your input.. The Helia 44 is so good, I thought of another option, I could sell this one here, and order a new one to collect in the Med. After the two year Cruising program I would end up with a two year newer Helia 44... It would also be imported to Australia a little cheaper as it would be two years old... There is NOTHING wrong with the Helia, I mean it might even be better as it would be easier to get slips and get into tight marinas.. That thought occurred to me over the weekend. They now come with some upgrades, upper fridge vents, lighter interior that has now grown on me, lighter grey corrion type stone benchtops that have grown on me, and hydraulic steering... Might be another option..

For now, we are taking our Helia 44 to the Great Barrier Reef for a few months next year. That won't be so bad, no Castles and Palaces, and historical artwork, but about 150 islands to visit.. heh he

Kind regards, Helia 44... AVALON
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Old 08-12-2014, 02:01   #17
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Purchase another Helia?


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Old 08-12-2014, 04:17   #18
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Sounds like you do not understand... It is not just the tyranny of distance. After two years in the Med and Carib, we could import a two year newer boat back to Oz... If the Maestro version of the Saba did not have a workable timetable for delivery, the Helia is so great I could consider it as an option. The newer ones have a lighter colour interior and semi grey stone bench tops, that is growing on me from looking at the Saba... Further a few more improvements like hydraulic steering... It is not out of the question...

I am considering all options before I part with my current Helia 44.
Thanks for talking with me about it... It helps me to analyse the options. Right now AVALON one of if not THE most well equipped Helia 44's in the world, and I have to have a conviction and plan, before I could part with Her... 😘 she is the nicest I have ever seen or owned...

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Old 08-12-2014, 04:55   #19
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

I wish I had some of your problems !!
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Old 08-12-2014, 13:04   #20
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Have you looked at the TAG 50' ?
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Old 08-12-2014, 14:46   #21
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Hopefully Tag 50 at Sydney Boat Show in 2015. The build of first unit is well progressed.
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Old 08-12-2014, 16:07   #22
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

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Originally Posted by ausaviator View Post
I wish I had some of your problems !!
Hello AusAviator.... You know something, larger finance does not make problems go away, you end up with just BIGGER problems... I was poor as a kid, that probably drove me to success.. Now the problems are larger as possibilities are larger...

Anyway, I am going to try and make the Great Kepple Islands group in the middle of the Great Barrier Reef in January... Then mid year, up to the Whitsundays for about 12 weeks in late June... I did not realize the huge "Revolution" Fountaine Pajot has made in design that can go Blue Water as well, well beyond my expectations, and it has opened up a new world.. Even racing her, it pulls some surprises blasting through two meter seas to windward that stopped the other boats and winning the joint two Club race in Mooloolaba... I have even been single handling her, racing, tacking, and docking, the design is that good.

If I could not squeeze out a Saba, the new interior of the later model Helia has grown on me, lighter colours, and hydraulic steering, so I like the Helia so much I could do one of those just as well in place of the Saba...

I mean AusAviator, the Revolution of Fountaine Pajot has opened up this idea to do all the castles and palaces and art of the Med with my Children, before THEY have children.. I had not considered it practical before, but this new design of the Helia 44 and now the SABA 50, has opened up a whole new world of practicality and performance. The GBR and GKI are nice cruising grounds here, but snorkeling and fishing and sailing has its limits, just lacks the culture and art and architecture and food and wine you could get in the Mediterranean... Further it has always been a fantasy to drag a magnatometer around the Carib, throw a weighted float marker on any alarm, and dive to see what was there...

I am probably just dreaming, probably impractical and silly, but thought it could be fun and import a two year newer boat back to Oz in two years..?

I am probably just crazy.... But putting the ideas into words helps me to evaluate and analyze the possibility... I am one of those that usually end up doing, not just talking.. That is the scary part, as this would be BIG.......... Anyway, thanks...
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Old 08-12-2014, 16:36   #23
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

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If I could not squeeze out a Saba, the new interior of the later model Helia has grown on me, lighter colours, and hydraulic steering...
Hmmmm, why do you think hydraulic steering is an improvement?

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 08-12-2014, 17:57   #24
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

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Hmmmm, why do you think hydraulic steering is an improvement?
2 Hulls Dave
It very well could be, but I won't know until I feel one... There has to be feedback from the waves on the hydraulic, or I will just keep the existing. I have Teleflex steering now, and the feedback in a quartering sea allows you to steer by feel, running contrary to the pressure as the wave rushes past. The rudders are connected by a tubular shaft, autopilot is on hydraulic ram.

From an Engineering standpoint: It works fine but I have about half a spoke of play, like 6 to 8 inches of rotation. I have already tightened it all up once. There is micro movement in the bushes that you cannot see down in the engine room, but you can feel with your finger on each bush, so wear will increase that play I have adjusted out six months ago. Sometime in 2014 F.P. switched over to hydraulic and that may be the reason.

Engineering:
Now, if I was going to keep this 2013 Helia, I could convert it if it was advantageous and I would not know until I meet up with one with it.. Play would be minimized, conversion parts from France are $4000 Aus $, so about 3600 US$, and supposedly 10 hours work. That is not the end of the world and I would have the complete Teleflex system for a backup. That or I could just get another Teleflex cable system for back up, and maybe make the bushes out of Teflon/Delrin, or bronze to minimize the wear and play. I have not done the Engineering on it yet, but assume F.P. Hydraulics are an advantage. If the feedback on the rudders was not there to steer by feel, the upgrade could go either way, and have the other system as a spare of very little weight and storage volume for such a key feature cruising... You really want to go below your boat in haul out or in the water and be able to move the wheel by pushing on the rudder. That feedback allows steering reflex learned at the helm in heavier seas, and makes steering the boat much less tiring. A lot of Autopilots don't work well in those conditions of a quartering sea (particularly stern quarter) anyway.
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Old 08-12-2014, 19:00   #25
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helia 44 View Post
There has to be feedback from the waves on the hydraulic, or I will just keep the existing.
Feed back from waves? Why do you want feed back from waves?

Most technical sailors want feed back due to imbalance between the lateral resistance of the hull in the water and the wind forces on the rig and sails. When these are not lined up fore and aft, you get either weather or lee helm. (And on multihulls this usually pales in comparison to what our friends on monos feel.) Sure you might "feel" incidental variations due to sea state, but that's not the important "feel".

The feel usually desired once balance is obtained is from the effects of that header or puff that momentarily shifts the balance and you get that feedback through the helm and can adjust accordingly. All puffs initially feel and look like lifts due to the apparent wind coming back. Feel it, head up a bit to regain the balance as the boat accelerates, fall back off as it passes and apparent wind goes back forward.

But more to the point, conventional wisdom and experience is that hydraulic steering has much less feel that mechanical steering - up to none. So don't count on better feel - expect less. That said, depending on how poor the design or installation or care and feeding of your existing mechanical system is, a hydraulic system may indeed be an improvement - but it won't be due to better feel.

Hydraulic steering is typically chosen when the location of the helm(s) is distant from the rudder stocks and to use a mechanical system would involve 40 miles of bad road with twists and turns and too many opportunities for imprecision. It's easier to run a bunch of hoses that bend easy and don't care if they're curved rather than line up wires and pulleys over a long distance. A cable system like yours is a compromise - it's easy to run push/pull cables like a hydraulic hose, but you suffer the imprecision of push/pull cables.

Hydraulic systems bring new problems to cats, not evident on monos, because of the two rudders. This introduces the problem of variable rudder alignment not usually a problem with well designed and cared for cable systems.

The best systems for helm feel are those using solid mechanical linkage which can be chosen due to close placement of the helm to the rudder stock. No wires, no pulleys, no springs, no push/pull cables, no rudder alignment issues, and no slop.

Consideration of what system work best for autopilots is another topic.

So recommend you inquire with FP why they went to hydraulic steering and what benefits does it afford the owner? There may be some, but it won't be for better helm feel. JHMO

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 08-12-2014, 19:08   #26
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

The story as told is that FP went with hydraulic for the same reason that they went to 13ml anchor chain and windlass. When they started building the Saba the suppliers offered the same or better price for equipping the same systems. i.e. it was a purchasing decision more than anything.

Always hard to know if this is the real reason.

Certainly, in my view the mechanical steering system on the Helia is pretty average. It will be interesting to see if the hydraulic system is any better.
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Old 08-12-2014, 23:12   #27
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Everything else they have done, I really like. I have more faith.. Myself, I think the 10mm chain weight in angled scope is OK for the size of the Helia 44, but with the Saba 50, I would want the heavier weight of the 13mm chain.... And that in turn requires the next size up winch... OK

For me, I like the feel of counter steering when two meter seas rush up behind me in a quartering stern sea... As I feel the pressure on the rudders, I like to counter steer with reflexive action, as it is easy and rolls with it to stay on course. It may be that you feel some with the new F.P. hydraulics, everything else they have done in the past two years is pretty outstanding and has made a huge reputation for them. I will wait to pass judgement until I can feel one in action.

The rudders are joined with the tube connecting them, everything hooks up on the short run to the Starboard side. There is just a bit of play in the bushes that wear and could be machined out. I am guessing F.P. did the hydraulics because of the wear in the bushes causing the play in the wheel, as I have heard of a few complaints, and the Saba rudders and steering is just that much larger...

For the most part, the negative commenters have not seen the leaps and bounds Fountaine Pajot have made in the past couple of years. I am going to think their reputation that is being built is worth far more than just a few dollars saved in such critical gear. I think they may have done the right thing, regardless of purchaser's offerings. It is the key to my success in Business, doing the right thing, not taking the deals if they are substandard. As good as Fountaine Pajot have gotten in the past two-three years, I think they must have the same philosophy.

That is why I may get another, I am that impressed...
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Old 09-12-2014, 03:44   #28
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Hmmmm, why do you think hydraulic steering is an improvement?

2 Hulls Dave
Yep - agree, I really really don't like hydraulic steering, but (as usual) I am in the minority amongst my group.
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Old 09-12-2014, 07:42   #29
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

Hi Helia 44,

I am currently looking into the same sort of problem and must admit the Helia 44 and Saba 50 both look like very good boats.

I have also looked through some of the details of the Antares 44i or 44e.. it seems to be a true Live-aboard and designed for comfort and performance.. as an alternative I saw a Dean D5000 now called Xquisite Yachts.. I am still trying to find out about its performance but it looks like a very nice boat.

Your final decision would interest me for obvious reasons.

Regards
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Old 09-12-2014, 14:17   #30
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Re: Med for a year, Carib for a year, 2016-17,18, what new Cat should I consider?

The Dean is a well built SA cat but quite heavy, so don't expect a great turn of speed. The work inside is quite good.
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