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Old 27-04-2007, 07:55   #31
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I just thought I would refresh this thread. To hear if there is any new information out there about the Manta. I am very interested in hearing more. I have narrowed the Cat's that I am interested in down to the Manta and the Broadblue. Only because my intended use if for Ocean Passages and these two seem like they might be the most reliable for a lower price. If anyone disagrees, I would love to hear why. I always enjoy being proven wrong,.... well, maybe not enjoy but accepting of it .

I noticed that Manta has a Pac with KEVLAR-REINFORCED BOWS & KEELS. I was just wondering what Pac that was in. It seems like a very wise choice if you plan to cross the Oceans.

Also, I am very very new to sailing. I was also wondering if learning on a Hobie Cat would supply the basic skills needed down the road to be able to handle a larger Cat, close to shore that is. I would take some sort of offshore training couse on Cat's before I would try anything to crazy.

Newbie Lundy
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Old 27-04-2007, 08:40   #32
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A different breed of cat . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy

Also, I am very very new to sailing. I was also wondering if learning on a Hobie Cat would supply the basic skills needed down the road to be able to handle a larger Cat, close to shore that is. I would take some sort of offshore training couse on Cat's before I would try anything to crazy.

Newbie Lundy
Any sailfoat can be an adequate platform for learning basic sailing skills, Lundy. But just because a Hobie or a Nacra or a Prindle is a catamaran, that doesn't necessarily mean they are the ideal first step for learning how to handle a cruising catamaran. It would be a bit like learning to ride a zippy little motorcycle, then applying that skills set to driving a bus.

Don't get me wrong. Sailing a fast little beach cat is a blast! A very wet blast! And you will definitely learn the sailing basics. But having gotten that, don't think that it directly equates to sailing a big cruiser. A cruising catamaran isn't just a big Hobiecat.

A beach cat has to be trailerable to be marketable, so the beam is typically around 8 feet. The high aspect ratio sail of a beach cat is unlike anything found on a cruising cat. This combination of high aspect ratio mainsail and narrow beam makes a beach cat what it is - quick as lightning, and prone to capsize. But that is why they are so much fun!

If you ever find yourself aboard a cruising cat that is "flying a hull" like a beach cat, put your head between your legs and kiss your . . . well, you know the rest. It is unlikely to occur, but it probably won't end pleasantly.

Cruising cats typically carry less canvas than they could, and are much beamier, so an inattentive skipper is unlikely to put the boat in jeopardy of capsize. Yes, some performance is sacrificed as a result, but it increases the margin of safety. That seems like a good tradeoff to me.

The Manta is a great cruising catamaran, Lundy. If you are fortunate to one day own one, I think you will be both happy and proud. Good luck in your search.

TaoJones
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Old 27-04-2007, 09:12   #33
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I disagree. Sailing a Hobie is a great way to find out quickly what you mustn't do in a larger cat! The relative wind issue is EXTREMELY important. You must learn to use the traveller to depower if a gust strikes if you're on a close reach. You've got to learn when to head up to spill wind, and when to pay off to reduce the relative wind.

Although I can't find the link on the web ... I understand that there is a Fontaine Pajot Tobago that has capsized twice. This is a 35' cruising cat, one size smaller than the popular Athena. Sure size may have a lot to do with it : most experienced cat sailors would probably go for 43' + because of the extra stability.

I have sailed a few cruising cats including Tobago and a St Francis 44. I have also sailed a Dart 18'. My appreciation of the actions of the Dart have reinforced my appreciation of what these larger cats are trying to do. I've had the Tobago up to 12 knots in seconds .... before being able to depower it. The St Francis has been powering into the late teens ..... a great thrill ...... but heading up would not have been a good move as we had the wind on the beam.

I don't know how the Manta handles. Unless it is a floating dock .... it is likely to be affected in a similar way, even if it is to a lesser extent. Cats have to accelerate in gusts ..... they cannot heel to get rid of the extra energy.

I hear about all this 'stuff' going on cats. If you load them down the sailing performance is going to suffer and the loads on the structure and the rig are going to increase. Keep the weight down to the design limits.

Cheers
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Old 27-04-2007, 09:16   #34
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Lundy --

I spend a week on a Manta and it was a very enjoyable experience. It is a well-integrated, well-designed boat that makes a lot of sense. Plus, they are very easy to sail. As with all boats, there are compromises and whether they are ones with which you can live is what will make the difference, for you.

As far as your how much your Hobie experience will translate, TaoJones (love than moniker, btw, how well it captures, so much) has got it right. I have only this to add: Most of the time, sailing a cruising cat is far more like driving a bus than riding a motorcycle. Both have their place and do things that the other could not possibly do (or perhaps, shouldn't try), but other than the basics, they are very different creations.

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Old 27-04-2007, 09:23   #35
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It was restored once, so if someone is ambitious . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by venturing seagull
Although I can't find the link on the web ... I understand that there is a Fontaine Pajot Tobago that has capsized twice. This is a 35' cruising cat, one size smaller than the popular Athena. Sure size may have a lot to do with it : most experienced cat sailors would probably go for 43' + because of the extra stability.
This must be the one you're thinking of, and is copied and pasted from the original story at 'Lectronic Latitude:

Surviving a Twice-Flipped Cruising Cat

April 20 - Off the West Coast of Florida
It's rare for a cruising cat to flip, but even rarer for one to be flipped twice. But that's what happened to Paradox, a cat most recently owned by Tom and Stanna Galbraith of Durango, Colorado, which started life in '96 as an F/P Tobago 35. We're not sure how the cat came to be upside down in Belize's Rio Hondo in '01, but it's our understanding - from some fascinating video on the couple's Web site - that using a small tug, they managed to right the cat. Having been upside down long enough for there to be growth several inches long throughout the interior and deck of the boat, it was one disgusting mess. Nonetheless, the Galbraiths obviously saw possibilities, and after what had to be endless months of dreadful work, they ended up with a cat, stretched to 38 feet, that looked damn good. And based on other photos on their Web site, they had a ball cruising the western Caribbean.

Paradox looking sweet after being flipped right side up and being restored.
On April 11, however, the couple were sailing from Key West to Tampa when a squall suddenly increased the windspeed from 11 knots to 48 knots. The cat flipped immediately. Either just before or just after, 60-year-old Tom grabbed his wife, and knowing that the cat wouldn't sink, pulled her into the hull where they had tools and wetsuits. While it had to be creepy inside the overturned hull, they knew the cat wasn't going to sink and that there was plenty of oxygen. Having heard only one ping from their EPIRB, Tom realized that the signal wasn't getting out. So the next day he drilled a hole in the bottom of the hull - which was now above their heads - and stuck the EPIRB antenna out. The EPIRB immediately started pinging away. Coast Guard Miami got the signal and launched a search plane at 5 p.m., and found the overturned cat an hour later some 171 miles southwest of Tampa. A rescue helicopter arrived on the scene at 8:30 p.m. and hoisted the couple aboard. Neither Tom nor Stanna had suffered injuries and both declined treatment. On the other hand, they apparently don't have any interest in restoring the cat a second time.

Tom Galbraith hanging out on Paradox in Honduras.
Photos Courtesy Paradox
A word to the wise: All other things being equal, as cats increase in length, they become much, much more stable.


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Old 27-04-2007, 12:19   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundy
I noticed that Manta has a Pac with KEVLAR-REINFORCED BOWS & KEELS. I was just wondering what Pac that was in.

It is not a Pac option, but rather part of the standard, base-priced boat.

Mark
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Old 27-04-2007, 13:11   #37
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IC .... thanks for the info on the Tobago
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Old 28-04-2007, 01:10   #38
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Manta light wind performance

I admit that my initial pull towards catamarans was because of the speed. What I've started focusing more on lately is the light wind performance of the cats.
With that in mind, I'm curious about the light wind performance of the Mantas. How little wind is necessary for you to be able to make some headway?
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Old 28-04-2007, 07:40   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail2009
I admit that my initial pull towards catamarans was because of the speed. What I've started focusing more on lately is the light wind performance of the cats.
With that in mind, I'm curious about the light wind performance of the Mantas. How little wind is necessary for you to be able to make some headway?
I can't answer your question specifically, as to Mantas, but your observation applies across the entire class of yachts called cruising catamarans. It is their capacity that makes them vulnerable to being overloaded, and the weight that comes with that seriously degrades their performance.

A heavily-laden catamaran is no faster than a mono of similar length; that is, any performance advantage it has when kept light is sacrificed when it is filled with lots of heavy "stuff." And, it goes without saying, cruisers are prone to accumulating more and more stuff, and an over-burdened cat in light airs is a real slug.

Good luck in your search, SettingSail2009.

TaoJones
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Old 28-04-2007, 09:10   #40
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Andreas --

During our week on a Manta, the winds were off and on, but we found that with main & jib, it moved at 5 knots with 10 knots apparent. Less than that was motoring time. We didn't have a spinnaker or gennaker on the boat, but that would likely have helped. The boat was fairly heavily loaded -- full fuel and water, 5 people and provisions for a week.

Been my experience that this is pretty typical for cruising cats. People report that other boats (Outremer, St. Francis, some Catanas) do better in light winds, and some others do worse. Mantas seem to be about average.

One of the things to keep in mind about the Manta is that it is really a stretched 38. The interior accomodations are in the 38' class -- the stretched transoms give it better performance and help to carry that very nice bimini/arch/aft bench configuration.

One of the things we really liked about the Manta was the ease of handling the boat. The helm station and running rigging is excellent. The camber spar jib makes tacking as easy as it can get -- run off just a bit to gain some speed, turn the wheel, that's it.

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Old 09-05-2007, 15:28   #41
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Being in the process of changing from monohull to cat, I am loking also at the MANTA series.
Is there a special MANTA owner group in the web? Did find nothing in "Lattitude&Attitude" as somebody referred to?
BTW, where is the escape hatch at the MANTA?
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Old 09-05-2007, 15:42   #42
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Unfortunately, there is no Manta owners group at this time, although I have mentioned it to Manta from time to time.

Manta does not have an escape hatch, at least none since a few of the early 40 footers. Escape hatches are a French (and maybe some other countries) requirement, but it is not required for U.S. made boats.
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Old 09-05-2007, 15:54   #43
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Thanks for the answer! I am astonished, that US regulations are not requiring a safety device as i.e. an escape hatch!?
Normally american standards are high and nearly everything is regulated by the US Coastguard directives.
At least my impression from german point of view.

Looking at pictures from the MANTA, the walls at the staterooms are covered with carpet?

The dinghi attachment at the arch, how do you stabilize the dinghi when crusing in some rough weather?
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Old 10-05-2007, 13:08   #44
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The "carpeting" on the stateroom walls is a special fabric that wicks moisture to minimize condensation. While it does the job, I will be the first to admit that I don't like it, and I really don't enjoy vacuuming the walls. However, in our discussions with Manta's owner, the likelihood of that aspect of the boat ever changing is somewhere between slim and none.

The dinghy is attached to the mother ship both at the top via the davits and below via a vang-type mechanism both forward and aft. I don't know the technical names for all this - colemj may be able to better describe it - but this vang thing is attached at the base of the arch by the stern steps on both sides, and you clip the other end to padeyes on the dinghy then pull it tight to keep the dinghy snug against the big boat.

Hope this helps. Feel free to ask any other questions, which I will try my best to answer.
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Old 10-05-2007, 13:57   #45
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Hi, Harriet,

check your pm.
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