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Old 26-09-2006, 19:23   #76
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Rick, ya just totaly knocked me out of the game Actually, us tri sailors have the best of both worlds. Maintenance of a mono with stability and speed of a cat
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Old 27-09-2006, 02:22   #77
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Ok, I gotta question. If a three hulled boat is a trimaran, why isnt a two hulled boat a bimaran?

(and my new theme song would be "Buy, Buy, buy, Buy bi-maran..." by the Reach Boys...)

And anyhow, what the heck is a maran? A canoe?

and finally, how the hell did the cat get involved?
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Old 27-09-2006, 03:17   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul
Ok, I gotta question. If a three hulled boat is a trimaran, why isnt a two hulled boat a bimaran?
...
And anyhow, what the heck is a maran?
...
Theory One:
The name “Catamaran” came from the Tamil language of India (“kattumaram” ~ ie: kattu, to tie + maram, wood, log); but the actual catamaran boat came from the Polynesian, Micronesian & Indonesian South Pacific.

Theory Two:
A “Catamaran” is not named a “Bi-maran”, in order to prevent confusion with “The Bimaran” casket, which is a small gold reliquary for Buddhist relics (so-named forBimaran, near Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan, where it was found by the archaeologist Charles Masson).

A “Trimaran” is a multihull boat consisting of a main hull (vaka) and two smaller outrigger hulls (amas), attached to the main hull with lateral struts (akas). The design and names for the trimaran components are derived from the original “Proa” constructed by Pacific Islanders.
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Old 27-09-2006, 05:54   #79
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strange, but I cant put much faith in either theory one or two. Why would polynesians name a boat using a language none of them ever heard, and from a not-seafaring people?

As for confusing a boat with a Buddhist jewelery box....I dunno bout that one, either. Maybe we should ask the Dali Lama...
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Old 27-09-2006, 06:48   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickm505
Deerfoot, Sundeer, and Beowulf are all cruising mono's and are the only boats the Dashews marketed.
Beowulf VI was a 39ft cat (designed and built by the Dashews) and the boat they started their cruising life. However, rather quickly they switched to Intermezzo, a mono.

Also, it seems they maybe marketing their new "unsail boat".
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Old 27-09-2006, 07:10   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul
... Why would polynesians name a boat using a language none of them ever heard, and from a not-seafaring people?

As for confusing a boat with a Buddhist jewelery box....I dunno bout that one, either. Maybe we should ask the Dali Lama...
1. It was Englishmen who "bastardized" the Tamil “kattumaram”, for reasons I cannot fathom.
2. Why ask the Dali Lama, when you've got me?
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Old 27-09-2006, 07:17   #82
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gosstyla,

I stand corrected. They did in fact build racing cats in the '70's. However I felt that the question was changing from multi's to mono's as a primary craft. I didn't feel that day sailors were to be counted. However, you win on points (smile)

Rick in Florida
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Old 28-09-2006, 04:54   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
1. It was Englishmen who "bastardized" the Tamil “kattumaram”, for reasons I cannot fathom.
2. Why ask the Dali Lama, when you've got me?


I was REFERRING to you...
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Old 29-09-2006, 03:51   #84
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Various alternative local names for a multi-hull:
Tahiti ~ Pahi, Va'a Motu, Pahi, Va'a Ti'i
Tuamotus ~ Pahi
Marquesas ~ Waka Tou'ua
Tonga ~ Tongiaki
Fiji Islands ~ Ndrua, Camakau
Hawai'i ~ Peleleu
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Old 29-09-2006, 19:26   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gosstyla
Beowulf VI was a 39ft cat (designed and built by the Dashews) and the boat they started their cruising life. However, rather quickly they switched to Intermezzo, a mono.

Also, it seems they maybe marketing their new "unsail boat".
Furthering the Dashew question...... This was quoted from a thread by Steve Dashew on the Multihulls Yahoo group from 1999.

"Dear Multihull Aficianados:

A friend has sent along some e-mails posted about our inquiry on heavy
weather tactics in mulit-hulls.

We are just finishing up a book on this subject and have been having a
hard time finding first hand accounts of successful tactics in really
severe weather with multi-hulls. So, if you have first hand experience,
or know of anyone, please get in touch with us.

I read with interest some of the historical comments on my involvement
with the multi-hull movement, so perhaps I should set the record straight.

I started sailing cats in 1958 - my first boat was a Wildcat - a
17-footer that was the hottest thing around in the olden days. A little
later my Dad launched what was one of the first big cruising cats, an
early design by Rudy Choy, the 58-foot HukaMakani. I was then involved
in several Shark cats (20-footers) and a number of class C and super Cs
(really mini D's).

The incident in the Chicago One Of A Kind regatta was with a C-class cat
which we lost coming into Belmont Haror entrance in a Northeaster. We had
the rig feathered to slow down, a big shift hit us, flow on the rig
attached, and we flew off the face of a wave and starting cartwheeling.

A 32-foot D cat followed (Beowulf V) and as mentioned in one of your
letters, she was like a big Tornado - in fact we used a Tornado deck jig
that we stretched. We raced and cruised this boat for about five years,
including five trips to Ensenada as "escort" for the Cinco De Mayo racers
(we always made it a point to get into port first to make sure everything
was ready for the rest of the boats) - this included the year of the "big
blow" in which half the boats turned back and two ORCA cats flipped - we
were in ahead of the first race boat by about six hours as I recall.

Beowulf V1 was a 39- cruiser/racer with a small cuddy that we used to
take our daughters cruising aboard - they were one and three at the time
- always with a hand on the mainsheet traveler control.

When the time came to cruise seriously offshore I never really considered
a multi-hull as I felt there was no room for error in heavy weather, and
if a breaking sea caught you the wrong way, there was nothing any level
of seamanship could do to avoid inversion.

As to my writings over the years about the suitability of multi-hulls for
cruising-which are based on something over 200,000 miles of experience in
mono hulls and multihulls-I believe the following:

1-If you go offshore in a multi-hull you need to be prepared in advance
to survive inverted.

2-Multi-hulls which are overloaded (as are many of today's cruising
multi-s) are far more dangerous than those which sail light.

3-For a given budget, you can buy more cruising boat speed and can carry
more payload in a monohull.

4-If you sail offshore in a multi-hull, you need to be sure there is
plenty of wing clearance (however that is defined) otherwise the slamming
will be most annoying.

5-Multi-hulls require more attention and are less forgiving in heavy
weather than mono hulls.

6-Multi-hulls do not sink if properly bulkheaded in the hulls . However,
extreme care needs to be taken with the containment of freewater or it
will destroy the structure in which case one hull may sink while the
other floats leaving you capsized at an unlivable angle.

7-A big advantage of a multi-hull comes when hitting a reef-they can
float over the edge into the interior lagoon where a monohull will lie on
the reef edge and be pounded to pieces.

Having said all of the above, if I were looking for a boat for day
sailing, or local cruising I'd always opt for a multi-hull - if kept
light, they are faster and way more fun to sail.

Which brings me back to what started all of this - I am looking hard for
some first hand experiences with heavy weather tactics in multi-hulls, so
if you know of anyone, have them get in touch with us.

Thanks,

Steve Dashew"
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Old 30-09-2006, 23:39   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fhrussell
Furthering the Dashew question...... This was quoted from a thread by Steve Dashew on the Multihulls Yahoo group from 1999.

"Dear Multihull Aficianados:



1-If you go offshore in a multi-hull you need to be prepared in advance
to survive inverted.

Steve Dashew"
Hasn't this been done to death by now? The response to this might be :

1 If you go offshore in a mono-hull you need to be prepared in advance to survive on the ocean floor.

Neither of which is true of course. Very few (if any) MODERN cruising cats or tri's capsize, and of those that do you find the virtually all of them were racing (therefore carrying too much sail for the conditions) at the time.

He makes it sound as though nobody has ever survived foul weather in a multihull!
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Old 01-10-2006, 04:01   #87
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.......you need to be prepared in advance ( as opposed to prepared after the fact?) to survive inverted? Like its some massive, pre-planned situation. I can just picture myself telling the wife, "Oh, by the way darling, since we are taking the cat offshore, I want to get one of those new 360 deg. gimballing refrigerators so we can survive inverted"...

Maybe another way to say it is, if you find yourself floating in the open ocean, and look around, and theres no boat in sight, you were on a monohull. You need to have prepared to survive upright, but alone and swimming. If you look around and there is a large, 40x20 ft. platform floating right next to you, you may in fact climb up on it and ride instead of swim. IF you want, you can dive down inside and raid the pantry, fresh water, clothing, etc.



This guy's welcome to his opinion. IF someone were to give me a new monohull, any size, any value, I would sell it and buy a catamaran.
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Old 02-10-2006, 08:34   #88
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I had a friend who is a marine architect (formerly with Farr and now up in Canada) and also building his own multihull go through the specs for our boat two weeks ago and tell us for our boat when we would start to lift a hull. The numbers he came up with I thought might be of interest to other multihull sailors.

With our full main up and Genoa (around 1200 sq ft of sail area) were we on a beam reach in 25 knots of steady wind we would be in danger of starting to lift a hull. Think of what that looks like, it's not a subtle wind, white horses are everywhere, moderate waves have been building up, it's painful to look into the wind. To be conservative, we reef when winds have built up to a steady 20 knots (25 knots is 1.6 times the force of 20 knots). By the way, we'd be sailing then at 14 knots. At 25 to 30 knots of wind we'd reef again.

I've personally been in 70 knots of winds, not by choice, and we were bare poles motoring into the wind which was a very strong thunderstorm. I was very white knuckled and very happy that I had two engines instead of one. Fortunately I wasn't in the open ocean and it lasted only for around 15 minutes. For open water the most wind I've seen is 30-35 knots and reefing conservatively.

This is also not to say that if you are on a multihull and you are in those winds you will always flip. Last weekend a friend of mine on his PDQ 42 was sailing with his spinnaker and full main in 30 to 35 knots of wind. He was sailing at 120 degrees off the wind and was foolishly seeing how fast he could go (called me on his cell phone screaming about how fast he was going (15 knots). Anyway, he got through it without incident because at least he realized he shouldn't go beam to with his sails. At the same time, 20 miles away another multihull was in the same wind and in the lower chesapeake flipped because they were beam to.

So there are two example of the math and the experience of showing how our rules of thumb to reef at 20 actually make sense and should be followed. (I've never been able to personally point at two catamarans I know about in similar winds where one made it and the other flipped). By the way, the flipped boat was towed within hours to a nearby marina to be righted.
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:12   #89
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I should have posted this in the safety thread. Sorry for the drift!!!
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Old 02-10-2006, 19:20   #90
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The question still remains, is it more or less expensive to maintain a cat than a mono? Haul outs: more expensive
Engines: more expensive
Basic systems: equal
Paint: more expensive
Slip fees: This is a tough one. Many places charge more per foot, but a 35' cat has allot more living space than a 35' mono, so per square foot of living space, a cat comes out ahead.
Sails: more expensive
Overall, it sounds like a cat cost more to maintain.
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