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Old 22-09-2006, 12:18   #31
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Bummer. Know any of the details? I am only 45 miles SE of Mayaguana.
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Old 22-09-2006, 12:28   #32
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Cats Sinking...

I have been wondering about this claim lately as well. I recall a story with photos a while back of a cat that was pushed ashore and pounded by breakers for a couple of days. When they were finally able to tow it off, they only made it a few hundred feet before it went to the bottom.

My Prout is a solid hull (not cored) and I wonder if it would float or sink. It does have four "water tight" compartments and a significant amount of foam in the nacelle (almost a center hull). But, given a couple of recent cat sinkings I wonder if it would stay afloat.

Sink of Float, I would still carry a life raft. If there were a fire it would not matter.

Woody
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Old 22-09-2006, 12:43   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul
Bummer. Know any of the details? I am only 45 miles SE of Mayaguana.
The following is from an e-mail I sent home last February:

Last week we had a little reminder that it's not all fun and games out here. Two boats were lost . It happened at Mayaguana, one of the southermost islands in the Bahamas, about 200 miles southeast of Georgetown. The details are sketchy as we got most of it over the single side band radio (ssb). Their signal was picked up here in GT and the cruisers here coordinated the rescue, trying to get the Coast Guard, Bahamas Air Sea Rescue (BASRA), US Army (they have a few helicopters here to check for drug smugglers) involved. The two boats were"Cattitude" and "Park Place" two fairly good sized catamarans. I think they got caught in the cold front that went through and apparently Cattitude got her prop fouled by her anchor and broke up on a reef. The people got ashore. Park Place tried to help but had to abort after damaging a rudder and getting holed in one of the hulls. They arranged to go to the other side of the island to pick up the people from Cattitude as it was too rough to get them on the lee shore. Park Place started motoring to the other side while the people off Cattitude hiked across. We were all listening to the reports on the ssb. Park Place was making a lot of water and the cruisers were trying to get some pumps to her. This drama played out over four or five hours. The Coast Guard was too far away, the Army had just been notified (everyone thought that the Coast Guard had informed them but somehow that didn't happen and the first they heard about it was when a cruiser here called them on a cell phone) and BASRA has limited resources. A couple of skiffs from Mayaguana were going out to meet Park Place and help with the pumping and bailing. Then we got the message that Park Place had been abandoned. She had hit a reef! The skiffs got to them and also picked up the other couple. Both couples are safe but both boats were lost. A sad reminder but at least everyone was safe.
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Old 22-09-2006, 12:52   #34
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Cat sunk?

Vasco

First off Catamarans don't sink, they can go over and then they float. For months or years at a time.

2nd, I know of no news story of catamarans lost at sea around Mayaguana. Where did you read this?

The last news story I'm aware of, on a Cat event was off the coast of Spain this past spring on a charter boat.

Cat's can turn turtle, but this is seldom is what happens. More often than not, it's a pitchpole. Whenever it happens, it's a group of people with little experience sailing a catamaran. There are subtle differences in sailing a mono vs a cat, one of these is knowing that in weather, you have to reef early, and another is that you can not bury a hull in the back of a large wave. In other words.. slow down.

I know as a mono owner, you are convinced you've made the correct choice for yourself and your family in selecting a mono. And, you probably have. But this mono/cat conversation is getting old.

All the circumnavigation records are now held by cats, all insurance companies now write policies. Their safety is no longer an issue and hasn't been for many years. I think it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks.

As a boat owner, I'm sure you are aware that the boating industry is trending more towards multihulls these days. Most people are buying the CondoCats, because of their roominess and then again, there's guys like me who just love to beach their boat on any island that takes my fancy. But for whatever reason, there are more Cats than ever in popular world cruising areas and this is only going to keep increasing.

Make peace, cause once we go Catamaran, there's no going back (smile)


Rick in Florida
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Old 22-09-2006, 12:55   #35
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I just read your article. Those two catamarans were at anchor.

Now it makes sense

Rick in Florida
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Old 22-09-2006, 13:13   #36
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Rick in Florida,

I was there in GT when this happened. My report was not third hand. I heard it all. This has nothing to do with the mono/cat debate. Everything can sink given the right circumstances. I think there has been at least one loss every year since I started going to the Bahamas years ago. Very few losses result from one thing happening. It's usually from a string of unfortunate incidents. I guess anchoring in the wrong spot might have been the start of these sinkings. A couple of years ago a Manta sank after being hit by a mailboat. My first year in GT (1990) a Hunter sank while trying to get into GT with a sea running. In 2005 a Nonsuch was lost on a reef at Rum Cay. The list goes on and on. If it floats, in the right circumstances, it'll sink.
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Old 22-09-2006, 13:21   #37
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for 250k to 300k I would look at a catamaran in the 40s. That will have enough room and load carrying capacity for your family. With that budget (which was identical to ours btw) you should have little problem.

BTW, I think the catamaran "Cattitude" was a prout event 34. Can anyone confirm. I don't know anything about Park Place, but would love to here if anyone knew exactly what boats they were.
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Old 22-09-2006, 13:22   #38
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Deciding on either a cat or a sail

To all.
I stumbled across this site yesterday and I am starting to get a grip on how to manuver around here. I see how a cat cat cost a % more then a monohull. I would think it evens out over time but I could be wrong. I just sold my 30 ft sail boat for I am looking at taking off 3 years to circumnavigate the globe. I have my eyes set on a 38 ft Cat. There are a few questions I would like some help understanding. What would the average cost per month be not living like royalty that is , What should the average fuel consumption per miles be, Any input would be well appreciated .Thank you.
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Old 22-09-2006, 13:27   #39
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Schoonerdog,

I forget the makes of the cats but I know Park Place was over 40 feet. Just checked my log book. This all happened February 13, 2006.
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Old 22-09-2006, 13:59   #40
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Hi Rick,

By sinking, do you mean going straight to the bottom? In your report above, I understand the "sinking" as breaking up on a reef. As a catamaran owner, I am interested in understanding cases where a catamaran sunk to the bottom instead of floating at some level at the surface. I'm particularly interested in the Manta hit by a mailboat. How/where was that one hit, and did it sink to the bottom? Do you remember the name?

I am also realistic enough to not believe that if my boat was holed, that it would provide a liveable platform. I have seen several photos of holed catamarans in which the cabin tops or decks were just floating at the surface. These certainly would not provide shelter, or even a safe platform. However, they do provide time and space to prepare to abandon ship. They also might provide some advantage in being used as a "dock" or extension for the liferaft (why cut away from a floating platform just because you can't live in/on it?).

These flip/float/sink cat/mono arguments rarely stay civil on discussion boards and each side tends to overestimate the characteristics of the respective breeds. My view is that, with a few design exceptions, if a mono gets holed it is going to the bottom. Sometimes very quickly, and one will not have much chance to retrieve gear or use the boat further in any manner. Conversely, with a few design exceptions, if a cat gets holed, it is sinking to a level in which one can no longer use it as a primary shelter, but will have a lot of time to retrieve gear and use it for secondary purposes.

Probably best just to stay off the reefs

Mark
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Old 22-09-2006, 14:00   #41
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Schoonerdog,

Park Place was a Manta 40 and Cattitude was a Witness 35.
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Old 22-09-2006, 14:07   #42
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Mark,

The boat that was hit and sunk by a mailboat was "Dues Paid" a Manta 40. The couple was lucky to get out alive and now have another Manta 40 called "Dues Paid" (again) . That's what they've got on the side of the hulls! This happened at Cat Island. They were anchored and the mailboat tried to avoid hitting another boat that was in the channel and hit them instead.
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Old 22-09-2006, 14:51   #43
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Any boat will sink if given enough holes, and running into a reef for several hours can do that. But lets step back and think about what give catamarans their positive bouyancy. A well protected catamaran will have a very long forward section of the bow which is used as a locker with a water tight bulkhead behind it and a crash compartment starting above the water line and going down to the keel that makes it a "floor" in the forward lockers. With our PDQ 36 it was around 5-6 ft of bow space completely enclosed, with our St Francis it's around 7 ft with a half high bulkhead extending a ft above the waterline. I'm making the bulkhead a complete height bulkhead and glassing in the floor to make a crash compartment for just these reasons.

Aft you'll have another water tight compartment in the transome. Typically it's a 1/4 of the forward compartment. Therefore most of the reserve bouyancy comes from the foreward compartments. I've owned a PDQ 36 and I know that they've lost their bows, had boats crashed through their sides (as happend with ours leaving a nice 2.5 ft hole), and had their transoms removed by mailboats, and been aground on reefs where they lost their keels and they managed to salvage the boats without them sinking.

I'm NOT saying it won't sink, but the large forward compartments have given it great protected reserve bouyancy which has proven out in many situations (one PDQ that was lost in a hurricaine was anchored and flipped backwards onto rocks, ok, nothing will ever help that situation!).

The Manta has forward birth on the starboard side bow extending leaving only 2 ft of reserve. Their transom is also a reverse slope giving it not much freeboard or reserve bouyancy. The resulting reserve bouyancy in that Manta 40 is FAR less than other catamarans which don't try to use the bows as living space and have higher freeboard on their transome. I would imagine my PDQ had 3 or 4 times as much protected reserve bouyancy forward.

The witness 35 also has almost no forward bow bouyancy and it occupies almost all of the square footprint of a catamaran with living space.

Again, any boat would sink if floundering on a reef for a very long time, but the very features that give catamarans a lot of reserve bouyancy aren't found in a high degree on these two boats. I guess what I'm saying is yes, some catamarans have enough reserve bouyancy to take a large hole, but frankly, some don't. It's something you have to take into consideration when buying a catamaran. When I bought ours, it was the first thing on our list.

Cheers
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Old 22-09-2006, 15:55   #44
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Hey yona , why woulld'nt you come to Australia and have a look at the Sanctuary cove boat show in Brisbane. Plenty good cats in Aus. Might be a bit biased but I think the boats here are a better option than U.S.. I think seawind go there, but gota love shionning and oram and tennant and the list of Aus and N.Z goes on.

Good Luck
Dave
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Old 23-09-2006, 09:54   #45
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Hi schoonerdog,

Maybe I didn't read your post correctly, but the starboard forward compartments on the Manta are 5-6' long and sealed off from the rest of the boat. They could be cut right off with no water entering the boat. Both compartments have horizontal bulkheads glassed in about half way down which provides locker space above, and a sealed air pocket below. If a water-tight hatch was provided to these upper lockers, they would also be sealed air pockets. You are correct about the reverse transoms, but almost every production boat has these.

My point above was that I wouldn't rely on any catamaran to provide adequate living accommodations should one be severely compromised. My gut, but uninformed, intuition is that even the PDQ36 is not going to float very high in the water if a mailboat stoves in the side of it.

But it isn't going to sink to the bottom.
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