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Old 22-07-2008, 15:31   #46
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[quote=Gludy;185528]
Quote:
So its the norm for many cat manufacturers to deceive the public by lying about displacement and polars ..... and everyone accepts that????
Yes in my experience. This gives meaning to the small notice on all specifications" We reserve the right to change specifications without notice" or wording to that extent.

I find that amazing.

Quote:
What about if you put it into your contract that they have to meet the specification or say within 5% of it otherwise they are penalised or you have the right to a full refund?

Has anyone tried that?[/quote
]

They would probably not accept the contract and come up with some reason or other.


It would be interesting to hear if Yeloya has actually had his boat weighed, i bet it's heavier than the 9.8 tons now quoted.

I have visited the FP plants, and seen the boats in production, when they say they use infusion, you need to check for which parts, it does not neceesarily mean ALL parts or even the majority.

Gludys, as I started by stating, "Buyer Beware"

Very few suppliers supply polars, and even if they do, they are seldom the verified polars, but the rsult of some VPP (velocity Prediction program) that the designer used before the boat was built. Adding a couple of tons dramatically changes everything. Most polars are also done at only one displacement, and don't take heeling etc. into consideration, nor sea state.

I have a FP build number 1. They got the waterline at the stern wrong by more than 5 cms! I can see the original marks from the mould that are under water now.

Take the necessary precautions when you decide to sign on the dotted line...

cheers

Alan
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Old 23-07-2008, 01:32   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
So its the norm for many cat manufacturers to deceive the public by lying about displacement and polars ..... and everyone accepts that????

I find that amazing.

What about if you put it into your contract that they have to meet the specification or say within 5% of it otherwise they are penalised or you have the right to a full refund?

Has anyone tried that?
Unfortunately many manufacturers claim weights that are not achieved.
In normal sales contract 5 to 10 % weigth difference is normal between quoted weight and achieved weight. In our case so far we have come out below our weight targets.
I believe some years ago a French manufacturer had a law suit because of a weight that came out much higher than mentioned in the contract.
If I where to purchase a Cat from another builder I would specify the weight target with a clause in it to discount the boat with 1 % for each 1 percent that the boat comes out higher in weight. ( I would even pay 1 % extra for a lower than expected weight.)
That way the knife cuts on both ends.
This would encourage builders to stick to their weight estimates or advertise with the correct weights.
The first 10 % overweight is acceptable but more is not.!!
If a manufacturer supplys a polar with the cat and you do a test sail it is easy enough to check if the polar come close to the actual speed sailed.
My 2 cents worth

Gideon
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Old 23-07-2008, 02:18   #48
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Hımmm...

Firstly, I didn't weight my Orana. I am not an expert sailor, but the moment I was on her, I felt that it was way above 8 tons. Probably, recently claimed 9,8 or 10 tons are right, maybe a bit more or less..
I understand that the polars are for ideal and almost unrealistic conditions; no heeling, calm see, etc. (How can the sea could be flat when there is a 20 knts true wind, is another good question..) The boat delivered about 15% less than what the polar predicted. (FP polars are given @ 20 knts true, reefing if any hasn't been mentioned and it is impossible to simulate exactly identical conditions..)
Regarding the legislation, when I made the agreement I had specs attached to it where the weight was shown as 8 tons. It is true that most manufacturers add clauses like "they can change the specs w/out prior notice, etc" However, this kind of unfair clauses are disregarded by the court. (at least in my country)
As Gideon pointed out, up to 5% max 10% could be accepted but 22% not. Most likely if I file a law suit, the court will call for an expert to determine what the impact of this extra 22% weight could be. If like we all agree, he says that it drammatically impacts the performance of the boat, then the court may rule for a compensation. In some cases, (for cars) the distributor had to suply a new vehicle.
I also agree that law suit should be the last resort but so far FP didn't even bother to answer so far.. I'll let you know what happens..

Cheers

yeloya
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Old 23-07-2008, 03:23   #49
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This thread and many others on this forum is hijacked!

This question was Looking for THE right Multihull in size 40-45f
And not why F-P weight to much. Please start a new thread with all new questions popping up in your head in the middle of a thread. It is interesting to read but it´s very hard to find if the thread have another title.
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Old 23-07-2008, 03:30   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime View Post
This thread and many others on this forum is hijacked!

This question was Looking for THE right Multihull in size 40-45f
And not why F-P weight to much. Please start a new thread with all new questions popping up in your head in the middle of a thread. It is interesting to read but it´s very hard to find if the thread have another title.

Unfortunately, this happens pretty often..

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, all is said. I have no intention at all to open another thread and continue discussing this topic.

Yeloya
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Old 12-08-2008, 15:52   #51
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My new "i like catamaran" list.

New or used boats.

Freydis 46 and 49
Dolphin 460
Leopard 46

And i want to find out more about these...

ST Francis 50
Outremer 50-55

And i will take a look at the productioncats like F-P and Lagoon and compare....

I still like the Antares 44i, the rig at their homepage is a ICW version. They have taller masts with more sail...

Maybe the boatshow in La Rochelle will give me some answers? If i can take time for the trip.
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Old 12-08-2008, 21:50   #52
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Hi Freetime,
look at a Lightwave 45 (lightwaveyachts.com)
I love the boat - obviously because I bought one. I had a LW 38 footer before and was also very happy.
Nils
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Old 13-08-2008, 05:55   #53
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Hi Freetime,
look at a Lightwave 45 (lightwaveyachts.com)
I love the boat - obviously because I bought one. I had a LW 38 footer before and was also very happy.
Nils
Interesting catamaran, look like the Seawind 1160. What is the price for it? Compared to other brands...
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Old 13-08-2008, 08:36   #54
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What is the price for it?
The price (2006) was listed in the pdf article on their website. I assume $AU.
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Old 13-08-2008, 08:36   #55
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Found it...thanks.

Around 400 000 € ? as tested?

Looks nice, it´s a long way home!


LOA ................................................13 .7m
BOA ................................................ 7.3m
Headroom throughout: ........................1.95m
Bridgedeck clearance (DWL): ............0.95m
Keel draught: ............................................1.2m
Std mast height: ....................................18.5m
Sails by: ............................................GM Sails
Sail area:
Main: .................................................. ....74 m2
Self-tacking jib: ................................30 m2
Genoa (if supplied): ..........................41m2
Small screecher (if supplied):..........55 m2
Large screecher (if supplied): ........70 m2
Spinnaker (if supplied): ..................154 m2
Disp. lightship: ....................................6500kg
Disp. DWL: ............................................9500kg
Length-to-beam ratio
(of each hull): ........................................11.5:1
Displacement/
waterline length: ............13.3 488:1 lightship
SA/displacement: ............5:1 1:62.5 lightship
Engine: ..............................two x 40hp Volvos
Fuel capacity: ..........................................800L
Freshwater capacity: ..............................600L
Price, boat as tested: ......................$845,000.
Base boat from: ................................$750,000
Delivery time: ......................Eight-10 months
from time of order
Builder: ............................Lightwave Yachts,
Gold Coast Marine Centre
200 Beattie Road, Coomera Qld 4209,
ph (07) 5556 0030, email
mail@lightwaveyachts.com, website
The Ultimate Catamarans by Lightwave Yachts
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Old 13-08-2008, 17:17   #56
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Hi Freetime,
it is a Grainger design. The price is around $ 750000 AUS completely optioned up for bluewatercruising your looking more like 800 to 850.
I love the sailing performance, the look, the elevated PROTECTED helm station and the huge protected cockpit. They do a beautiful semicustom finish. It has not as much interior space in the saloon as comparably sized french boats and yes it is along way away. But you could always start your adventure here and save yourselve the 10% tax surcharge.
UPPS: Now I sound like a bloody boatbroker- wich I am not. Just love the boat.
Nils
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Old 14-08-2008, 01:57   #57
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Nils,

Can you give us some info on how she sails, seaworthyness, etc..

Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 14-08-2008, 02:48   #58
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I did a delivery of a 45 from Southport to Sydney on a 45 and became a firm admirer of the helm station when we had a 35 knot ugly bouncy rainy storm off Newcastle one night. Made it fairly relaxed to be on watch. My feel was she sails well was well built and easy to handle. And the 45 looks great, the 38 looks nice but the 45 just stretches it all out. It is certainly a quality item well built.

Lightwave has a blog/journal from Inn for Penny II, a 45 which is currently circumnavigating.
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Old 14-08-2008, 04:52   #59
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Thanks,

I will take a look at the blog. Semicustoms is nice. I don´t need 4 bathrooms...
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Old 14-08-2008, 12:15   #60
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OUTREMER

have you looked at the outremer 42 ? my estimate is its the best in class its on my shopping list- after bread ,tomatoes etc ,etc !
Quote:
Originally Posted by freetime View Post
My new "i like catamaran" list.

New or used boats.

Freydis 46 and 49
Dolphin 460
Leopard 46

And i want to find out more about these...

ST Francis 50
Outremer 50-55

And i will take a look at the productioncats like F-P and Lagoon and compare....

I still like the Antares 44i, the rig at their homepage is a ICW version. They have taller masts with more sail...

Maybe the boatshow in La Rochelle will give me some answers? If i can take time for the trip.
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