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Old 21-07-2008, 04:38   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Hi Gideon,

You quoted Orana as 8.000 kg. That was what I thought when I ordered it. I had posted here my first sailing impressions and said that she felt much heavier than this. I checked again the specs in FP web site, it is now quoted as 9.800 kg !!!! the rigging being exactly the same. I made couple of question to FP to understand where from this extra 23% was coming, no answer.

Anyway, she still sails pretty well (11-12 knts SOG, with double reef on the main) and comfortable if the winds is around 25-28 knots. I have seen up to 40 knt, very stable and safe..
Below 20 kns is very slow, after 15 you better start motoring..
It's interesting , because Fp's are believed to be "lightly built" , this is not the case for Orana. Secondly, I wonder how a company could add extra 1.800 kg material free !!! (despite the increase in oil prices, there is no price increases in FP) i
FYI

Yeloya
Hallo Yeloya
contrary to what you think building lightweight is much more expensive than building heavy weight yachts.In this case they should actually give you money back because of your boat having a payload that is now limited by 1800 kilo of extra weight and a cruising speed that will be lower .
The extra cost for the added 1800 kilo in weight if made up with polyester, gellcoat , glass and wood will come in around 3000 Euro while the saved costs in labor will be a lot higher.
To compare speeds , this weekend we sailed with a customer with 20 to 27 knots of wind speed and we averaged sailing speeds between 8.5 ( pointing 35 degrees ) to 15.1 knots
( reaching ) . we only used the main and jib.
You bought a very pretty catamaran good luck and happy sailing
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 21-07-2008, 05:19   #32
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Gideon,


Thx for the reply..If you don't mind, few more comments on this.

-If a manufacturer doesn't have the technology and or cost structure (that's what you are implying) of finishing a 43ft catamaran at 8 tons, he shouldn't advertise it that way.
-I am told that the initial projections and objective were calling for 8 tons but ended up 9.8 tons. This is not serious. I could understand couple of hundred kg, but 1.8 tons extra is massive..
-If this extra becomes inevitable for any reason, then rigging must have been upgraded (which wasn't done) to comply with the polar charts that you put on yr web site.
-I just wonder why and where this extra 1.8 tons have been put ??

Being a manufacturer, you can perhaps help me better understanding..

Otherwise, I am not saying that the boat is a bad one. All I am saying is that, with this structure, the performance in light airs will be significantly compromised. In turn, for passage making or heavy wheathers, it can even be better, who knows..
As you know, there is no perfect boat. The manufacturers should give a reliable data on their boats as the customers are making their decision basing on this data. Lighhtweight cat has a cost and unfortunately that was out of my reach. I hope with the development in the technology, one day it will be.

Cheers

yeloya

PS.If I remember correctly, max loaded capacity of Orana is 14+ tons. So, there is still enough room there. But, obviously the performance in this case will further worsen..
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Old 21-07-2008, 07:55   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Gideon,


Thx for the reply..If you don't mind, few more comments on this.

-If a manufacturer doesn't have the technology and or cost structure (that's what you are implying) of finishing a 43ft catamaran at 8 tons, he shouldn't advertise it that way.
-I am told that the initial projections and objective were calling for 8 tons but ended up 9.8 tons. This is not serious. I could understand couple of hundred kg, but 1.8 tons extra is massive..
-If this extra becomes inevitable for any reason, then rigging must have been upgraded (which wasn't done) to comply with the polar charts that you put on yr web site.
-I just wonder why and where this extra 1.8 tons have been put ??

Being a manufacturer, you can perhaps help me better understanding..

Otherwise, I am not saying that the boat is a bad one. All I am saying is that, with this structure, the performance in light airs will be significantly compromised. In turn, for passage making or heavy wheathers, it can even be better, who knows..
As you know, there is no perfect boat. The manufacturers should give a reliable data on their boats as the customers are making their decision basing on this data. Lighhtweight cat has a cost and unfortunately that was out of my reach. I hope with the development in the technology, one day it will be.

Cheers

yeloya

PS.If I remember correctly, max loaded capacity of Orana is 14+ tons. So, there is still enough room there. But, obviously the performance in this case will further worsen..
Hallo Yeloya

A project like building a catamaran starts with design parameters set out by the person or company producing the cat.
A designer comes up with the plans for a boat including all necessary equipment.Than the builders sets out to build the boat and this is where the weight gets compromised.
Starting with the gellcoat , optimally 600 grams of gellcoat is used per squire meter but if the gellcoat sprayer has an off day this can go as high as 1.5 kilo per meter or a difference of 250 kilo in a boat like the Orana 44.
Next step is putting a layer of CSM with polyester to prevent print thru of the foam or balsa
there the same can happen , lets say the laminator had a day off , an extra 125 kilo of resin
is put on. next a layer of around 1000 grams of glass is laminated on and if that is done with a very carefull laminator he ads around 1000 grams of resin per squire meter or a resin to fiber ratio of 50 % again if not .now since I think your boat is not infused they use bonding paste to stick the foam or balsa into the laminate , minimal use is 250 kilo but as much as 500 can be used.
It keeps on going like this and that is how your cat ended up 1800 kilo,s heavier than expected.
If I where in your shoes I think I would demand compensation , if a boat is 5 % over or underweight that is normal or 4 to 500 kilo is ok but 1800 is a different story.
It is also possible they where to optimistic in their first weight estimate but this is maybe one of the reasons why you purchased the boat in the first place.
Another possibility is that you or the factory has added options that where not in the original weight estimate and these should also be calculated in.

Warm Greetings
Gideon
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Old 21-07-2008, 09:54   #34
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Greetings!

Hello Everybody,

I'm the new kid around the block. Also new to the cruising game. Don't have a boat yet but I'm actively looking for one. A used Privilege 39 would be my choice. Any recommendations/referrals would be most welcome!. Talk to you soon.
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Old 21-07-2008, 14:21   #35
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WELCOME aboard, ericlo.
I too, admire the Privilege cats.
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Old 21-07-2008, 15:11   #36
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The Privilege looks very good, i had to find out if i would like to sail a trimaran first. Planning a trip to us for a testsailing... But probably a catamaran is a better choise. But i must still my hunger first.
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Old 21-07-2008, 19:45   #37
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Originally Posted by freetime View Post
The Privilege looks very good, i had to find out if i would like to sail a trimaran first. Planning a trip to us for a testsailing... But probably a catamaran is a better choise. But i must still my hunger first.
I was getting a trimaran till I couldent get any insurance but this is Australia I had always wondered why thy where cheep.
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Old 22-07-2008, 02:05   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Hallo Yeloya

now since I think your boat is not infused they use bonding paste to stick the foam or balsa into the laminate , minimal use is 250 kilo but as much as 500 can be used.
It keeps on going like this and that is how your cat ended up 1800 kilo,s heavier than expected.
If I where in your shoes I think I would demand compensation , if a boat is 5 % over or underweight that is normal or 4 to 500 kilo is ok but 1800 is a different story.
It is also possible they where to optimistic in their first weight estimate but this is maybe one of the reasons why you purchased the boat in the first place.
Another possibility is that you or the factory has added options that where not in the original weight estimate and these should also be calculated in.

Warm Greetings
Gideon

Hello Gideon,

I am an engineer and somewhat familiar with the gel coat technology, althought I have no idea at alll on boat manufacturing. As far as I know, FP's are built on a line with max. automation and vacuum infusion technology. (that was one of the reason why I choose them..)
Therefore, I cannot believe that they could have used 1800 kg of extra material. For one boat 3.000 € is OK, for 100 boats it makes 300.000 € and so on..

FP has had nothing added on the initial inventory list, so the weight cannot be there.

I'll get in touch with my lawyer. Thx for yr insight.
Cheers

Yeloya
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Old 22-07-2008, 05:15   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Hello Gideon,

I am an engineer and somewhat familiar with the gel coat technology, althought I have no idea at alll on boat manufacturing. As far as I know, FP's are built on a line with max. automation and vacuum infusion technology. (that was one of the reason why I choose them..)
Therefore, I cannot believe that they could have used 1800 kg of extra material. For one boat 3.000 € is OK, for 100 boats it makes 300.000 € and so on..

FP has had nothing added on the initial inventory list, so the weight cannot be there.

I'll get in touch with my lawyer. Thx for yr insight.
Cheers

Yeloya
What you are telling me only confirms that FP has been to optimistic with their original weight estimate .Maybe this was deliberate and maybe just wishfull thinking.
Although I am sure you have a very good Cat , If I where in FP s position I would make a gesture of good will for the extra weight , starting with lawyer,s is not the right way for a first conversation with them, just give them a call and ask if and how they are willing to compensate you first ?

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 22-07-2008, 05:27   #40
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Originally Posted by sctpc View Post
I was getting a trimaran till I couldent get any insurance but this is Australia I had always wondered why thy where cheep.
I have a tri and can get insurance in Australia
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Old 22-07-2008, 13:37   #41
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So let me, in my slow way, try and understand what is being stated here.

FP are a production line cat makers and is it true that you cannot believe their published displacements?

If that was the case then I think under EU consumer legislation a buyer could reasonably expect a refund because the goods are not as described.

Does anyone know if it is general practice for cat manufacturers to underestimate the real weight of their boats and publish misleading figures?
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Old 22-07-2008, 13:51   #42
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Does anyone know if it is general practice for cat manufacturers to underestimate the real weight of their boats and publish misleading figures?
That seems to be the norm from what I have read.
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Old 22-07-2008, 13:52   #43
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Does anyone know if it is general practice for cat manufacturers to underestimate the real weight of their boats and publish misleading figures?
That seems to be the norm from what I have read.

Same with polars.
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Old 22-07-2008, 14:42   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
Hello Gideon,

I am an engineer and somewhat familiar with the gel coat technology, althought I have no idea at alll on boat manufacturing. As far as I know, FP's are built on a line with max. automation and vacuum infusion technology. (that was one of the reason why I choose them..)
Therefore, I cannot believe that they could have used 1800 kg of extra material. For one boat 3.000 € is OK, for 100 boats it makes 300.000 € and so on..

FP has had nothing added on the initial inventory list, so the weight cannot be there.

I'll get in touch with my lawyer. Thx for yr insight.
Cheers

Yeloya
Hallo Yeloya

in order to save 1800 kilos in weight will cost at least 100.000,00 euro per cat.
That is 10 milllion in 100 cats so it is easier to just raise the figure to the correct one and save a fortune.

Greetings
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Old 22-07-2008, 15:11   #45
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So its the norm for many cat manufacturers to deceive the public by lying about displacement and polars ..... and everyone accepts that????

I find that amazing.

What about if you put it into your contract that they have to meet the specification or say within 5% of it otherwise they are penalised or you have the right to a full refund?

Has anyone tried that?
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