Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-12-2010, 19:35   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,313
Diverchick71, you haven't said much about how you intend to use your boat once you get it other than liveaboard and scuba diving. If you are only intending to island hop or do coastal cruising and are primarily interested in liveaboard comfort as opposed to ocean crossing, you might want to check out Endeavourcats, since their factory is just down the road from one of you in Clearwater. They're very roomy, though probably a bit top heavy for ocean crossing, though one of their smaller boats has crossed the pacific. Their smaller boats have virtually no bridge deck clearance though owners don't seem to be bothered as much as people looking at them. I have one of their 44s and have had it to the Bahamas, Keys, and up and down the East Coast to NC, both in the ICW and off shore with no significant issues. It's not a sexy design but it does make a nice Condo and sails remarkably well. Much better than she looks like she would. She does well in both light and moderate winds, though I've not tried to sail her in more than 30 knots and can actually point better than many monos.

Mark Johnson,
That's a nice looking Searunner. I agree that a tri probably has more ultimate stability as virtually all that I have seen seem to have a very low CG in addition to their broad beam. If the OP is looking at ocean crossing this could be a very important consideration, but if they're looking at Island hopping and liveaboard in Florida, the Bahamas, and Caribbean, then roominess and load carrying capacity may be more important to them, not that Tri's can't carry a load, I'm sure they can. I'm not trying start a cat versus tri fight here, but It's always seemed to me that up to at least the high 30 foot range a cat has a roominess advantage over a tri, though admittedly the storage in the outer hulls has it's advantages in getting the bulky stuff out of the way. I once saw a Tri that must have been about 50 feet and you probably could have put two of my 44 foot cat's inside it.
__________________

__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2010, 21:16   #17
Registered User
 
Dragon Lady's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Boat: Lavezzi 40, Pourpre
Posts: 949
Having spent over a year researching family/wife friendly boats and spending last weekend on a cat it's a no brainer for me.
Although we didn't have more than 15kts everyone always felt comfortable and safe, my little one complained when we came in out of the swell because she was enjoying the fun of the bumps.
Twin engines are another no brainer the ability to manoeuvre a big cat in a tight space is fantastic something I don't believe is possible with one engine.
Dollars is the only downside but at least you get a good resale at the end of your ownership if there is an end.
Take your time and enjoy your research this something that you should not jump into without a lot of thought.
There are many great people with invaluable experience and knowledge on this site make the most of it.
Good luck with your quest.
__________________

__________________
Dragon Lady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 06:09   #18
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Mark Johnson, I was wrong trimarans do have more stability than a cat but are more prone to wave capsize than a cat. Supposedly the Prout cats have more safe blue water miles put under their keels than any other production built boat, mono or multi.
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 08:08   #19
Commercial Member
 
Mark Johnson's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Bern NC
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 1,565
SMJ, You are mistaken that a Searunner 34 tri would be more prone to wave capsize than say, a Prout 34 Cat. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Attached is our tri beating at 45 degrees off of the apparent wind, in the Tongue of the Ocean, off of the coast of Andros. The winds were in the mid to upper 30s, and we were reefed down with staysail and doing 8.5 - 9 knots in violent 13 to 15' waves. (under auto pilot, while eating lunch!) A 34' cat that has 6.5' headroom and low freeboard would've come apart in the attempt. They simply can't do this! Not safely, not at all... My friends (previously mentioned) 33' custom cat, COULD do it however. With daggerboards, high wing clearance, and only 4' headroom, they were not trying to defy the laws of physics.

Making cat vs tri comparisons is moot. There are good and bad designs of both, and just like monohulls, dockside accommodations are what sells MOST boats. The designers attempt is to make the boat marketable first. Just like ALL generalizations, this is not always true. At least 10% of the designers draw SEA BOATS. And at least 10% of the boats out there, ARE true sea boats. It is the other 90% that people need to be honest about and make their cruising plans with that in mind. With modern weather gadgetry, this is quite possible. I have friends that took a Marine Trader trawler from SC (East coast USA) to the San Blass Panama and back! It was NOT a sea boat, even by trawler standards, but with careful weather watching and seamanship, they had a sucessful 10 years of this kind or cruising.

Regarding old multihulls... I have been researching, repairing, building, and cruising my own multihull creations since the 70s. I know that Prouts have enjoyed a good safety record among production boats, partly because they've been around so long, and partly because their limitations are SO immediately obvious that the skippers sailed them like my trawler friends did. I also know of Prouts starting to come apart on the first day out, trying to make a rough windward passage! On more than one occasion I have talked to delivery skippers trying to get a half million dollar NEW Prout to the owners home state. They were on the clock, and felt compelled to slog to windward. They both said it was the scariest thing that they had ever done! The ICW was looking better all the time! I'm not singling out Prouts, I'm singling out HIGH CENTER OF GRAVITY, and LOW WING CLEARANCE! (in cats or tris)...

When cats get to 40' or so, they can have good numbers in both departments. When they get shorter, if one wants to have safety that even approaches a well designed tri, they have to go with sitting headroom, like my friends did, or in production boats... like the old Iroquois did. (sitting head room) They will still have more accommodation that a similar tri.

You can't have it all... A well designed OCEAN CRUISING multihull is kept light, with a low center of gravity, and good wing clearance. The accommodations are kept moderate, and the visibility forward is not blocked by the cabin or jib. Now, THAT'S a no brainer...

Mark
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	079_79 (2).JPG
Views:	78
Size:	102.2 KB
ID:	21810   Click image for larger version

Name:	078_78 (2).JPG
Views:	76
Size:	103.1 KB
ID:	21811  

Click image for larger version

Name:	077_77.JPG
Views:	81
Size:	109.5 KB
ID:	21812   Click image for larger version

Name:	ps_2010_08_25___16_34_59.jpg
Views:	73
Size:	111.5 KB
ID:	21813  

Click image for larger version

Name:	140_140.JPG
Views:	84
Size:	104.2 KB
ID:	21814   Click image for larger version

Name:	105_105.JPG
Views:	81
Size:	127.1 KB
ID:	21815  

__________________
Mark Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 08:27   #20
Registered User
 
DiverChick71's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Complicated
Boat: Fuji 45'
Posts: 237
Send a message via Yahoo to DiverChick71 Send a message via Skype™ to DiverChick71
Wow thanks for all the input.

I haven't said what our plans are because they really aren't finalized. I've had the dream of blue water passages, but honestly I don't see that fitting into our lifestyle for the next several years. And maybe some true sailing EXPERIENCE would help. So we are trying to find a compromise boat now. One we can enjoy, get some experience, and decide if we want to go further. So thats the tentative plan...this week. . Key word...tentative!!

We are both nurses, and have done the travel nurse gig for years. I can see being VERY content with coastal cruising, or island hopping, for many years. That way work is available when the coffers need a fill, or even in the islands/Mexico, a quick flight back to the US is an easy fix. My boyfriend wants to live aboard, even before we go anywhere, so comfort is a factor to him. I have teenagers at home, so I'm land chained for a couple more years, and I cannot/will not imagine a live aboard or "cruising" with two teen girls who were not raised in the lifestyle of minimalism. The compliment of hair dryers, curling irons, 17 pairs of shoes, etc!? Of course they SAY they could handle it...yeah. No thanks. so he will live aboard, and I won't, for a couple of years. And we will take weekend cruises and vacations. We both have an abundance of time off, 12 hour shifts have their advantages.

Mark said it well...best boat is one that's paid for. Along those lines, budget is a huge concern. We aren't going to finance, and we want a boat that we can enjoy right away, but certainly know that we will have to put a fair amount of work into it to make it what we want. We were looking at a project boat pretty seriously, but decided against that. I think it would be too much for me at this point. Since budget is a concern, and Im a novice, I think I'll stay away from custom boats. I just don't know enough about them, and I'm going to have to put some weight into reputation when it's decision time.

So we are going to keep looking, at cats and monohulls. And now maybe Tris because that Searunner is a beauty! And we will charter, and keep saving, and my kids will go to college, and hopefully we will figure out what we want.
__________________
Sailing with Mongojo...currently a boat repair blog...hopefully someday a sailing blog!
DiverChick71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 08:41   #21
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Mark Johnson, I thought we were comparing apples to apples, a blue water designed cat to a blue water designed tri. If that's the case then the blue water designed cat has less chance of wave induced capsize. I agree the Searunner is a very seaworthy boat, partly because the ama's have a huge amount of buoyancy, almost as much as some cats hulls. But if you take a tri with small low buoyancy ama's it has a greater risk of wave induced capsize. The Prouts had a very low cg as well as small sail area which makes them seaworthy. I don't know of all the problems with the Prouts just that they have a ton of circumnavigations that have been accomplished. I will agree that the majority of the production cats nowadays are built more for their commodious interior than their ability to sail well or to do blue water passages.
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 08:56   #22
Registered User
 
cfarrar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brooklin, Maine U.S.A
Boat: Allures 44
Posts: 734
Images: 2
No doubt a cat would be nice for scuba diving, but you can dive from a monohull, too. The hardest part is exiting the water, and the solution is simply to remove your gear and attach it to a lanyard, climb up the swim ladder, then haul up your gear.

Often you won't be able to anchor on top of your dive site, anyway, so it's important to have an adequate dink / engine, along with a good dinghy anchor.
__________________
cfarrar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 09:25   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarrar View Post
No doubt a cat would be nice for scuba diving, but you can dive from a monohull, too. The hardest part is exiting the water, and the solution is simply to remove your gear and attach it to a lanyard, climb up the swim ladder, then haul up your gear.

Often you won't be able to anchor on top of your dive site, anyway, so it's important to have an adequate dink / engine, along with a good dinghy anchor.
I agree it can be done, but given a choice why would you want to? I once dove from a friend's 25 foot Aquasport. The thing had about 3 feet of freeboard and no swim platform, so we had to board via a boarding ladder hanging over the side. As you noted the procedure was to clip the tank to a line and climb up the ladder. A 25 foot deep vee Aquasport has little lateral stability so climbing the boarding ladder was somewhat akin to climbing an overhanging rock. It was not a pleasant experience. Depending on the amount of ballast in a monohull and the size of the boat I can imagine diving from a monohull could be a similar experience. Then again some Mono's have a boarding ladder in the center of the stern and would not present such a problem. Then again I'm not as young and spry as I used to be.

I fully agree with your statement about the dinghy. We have often used ours in the Bahamas to go into reef areas we would not take the cat. Sometimes the best reefs are only a couple of feet under even at high tide and the openings are not big enough to get a large boat through safely. The dinghy allows us to anchor the boat safely in deep water, then avoid a long swim to get to the reef. The currents around these reefs can often be pretty strong and hard to swim against for long distances. A 10 Ft dink is good for 2 people on scuba or 4 snorkeling. HP is not as imprtant as reliability. Seldom does one actually need to get the dink up on a plane for short trips, but a little extra HP helps going into the wind and waves.
__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 15:44   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Whilst there is no doubt you can dive from a mono there is no doubt cats are ideal for it. An adittional factor is the large shaded cockpit.

The other side is when you are using a dingy is axcessibility for loading /unloading dive equiptment and the dingy itself.

Just no comparison for me.

At least some of new mono designs have recognised this issue with inproved transon design but in most unless over 50 feet dingy storage and workability can be a major comparative issue.


cfarrer
As one gets older there is nothing simple and easy or ultimately safe about hauling scuba gear up on a rope. No doubt it can and is done by youngsters or in emergencies like anchor retrival or prop entanglment. I am past those days.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 17:58   #25
Commercial Member
 
Mark Johnson's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: New Bern NC
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 1,565
I consider diving in clear water the point of cruising in the first place! When anchored in the Bahamas or Glovers Reef Belize, I spend about 5 hours a day in the water. Mostly free diving, often spear fishing, and occasionally scuba diving, (although I usually use my SCUBA outfit to scrub the boat's bottom). In less than 35' I prefer free diving.

I love our ease of getting in or out of the water. First off... our 6' long hinged folding boarding ladder is permanently mounted near the center of the boat (side to side), and forward of the stern. It is in the least motion part of the boat. The ladder's hinge is mounted to a heavily nonskidded level platform with support legs. In the up "stored" position it is held in place with a plastic hook on a rope to the ladder's upper rung. In an emergency, if I say... stupidly fell in at anchor, I can just reach the ladder's emergency dangle string, and break the hook. Then the ladder comes down and I can unfold it, leaving the bottom rung a couple of feet below the water. It faces forward, as a ladder should, to avoid issues with current and waves.

In a boat emergency, I have had to dive on the boat's bottom at sea, with winds in the upper 30s, and >10' waves! Even in these conditions, the ladder worked flawlessly, although not becoming impaled by any part of the wildly bucking boat was a real challenge!

This setup has worked well for the last 15 years, and endured about a dozen hurricanes. (one a high 3 low 4 with 150 MPH gusts) It is a very stout set up!

It is easy to hang on to the ladder to rest when scrubbing the bottom, and my "tools" hang next to the ladder in a dangling canvass bucket. To get out, I toss my weights & fins onto the deck first.

I can and sometimes do climb the ladder with my tank & weights on, but it is not easy. What I prefer to do, is to lasso the tanks valve stem or the BCs handle, with a previously arranged dangling rope. This holds it between the hulls while I get out. Then I straddle the crotch between the ama aft deck and the aft wing edge. This is perfect! It allows us to pull straight up, NOT up and OUT to avoid the hull, which is a back killer. My wife and I are 56 and have bad backs, nevertheless, we find it flat easy to pull up my 80 c.ft. tank this way.

When going on a serious diving foray, we load up the RIB from the low ama side, through the open gate in the stanchion. It is hard to beat diving from a RIB!

We have tons of deck space to wash gear, it dries in the netting, we keep most of it just inside of one of numerous deck hatches, and the tank lives down in the ama, with it's weight LOW,at the waterline.

I have never seen a better diving set up on a 34' boat... at least for our needs.

Some tris make GREAT dive boats... Mark
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CRUISING ON DELPHYS016.jpg
Views:	90
Size:	49.0 KB
ID:	21823   Click image for larger version

Name:	PDR_2250.JPG
Views:	92
Size:	85.8 KB
ID:	21824  

Click image for larger version

Name:	133_133.JPG
Views:	87
Size:	76.5 KB
ID:	21825   Click image for larger version

Name:	ps_2010_11_20___13_41_49.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	126.0 KB
ID:	21826  

__________________
Mark Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2010, 19:29   #26
Registered User
 
cfarrar's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Brooklin, Maine U.S.A
Boat: Allures 44
Posts: 734
Images: 2
Hey, diving from a cat sounds great. Don't get me wrong.

If you have davits, you transfer your dive gear in / out of the dinghy while it's hoisted. Also, I've use my davit tackle (one side's 4:1 the other 6:1) to hoist lots of stuff into the cockpit, including my dive gear.
__________________

__________________
cfarrar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cat Cruising for First Time Invitation Multihull Sailboats 1 26-10-2009 06:38
Trade: Ocean-front Maui Condo Time for Caribbean Cat Time jbilotta Meets & Greets 5 29-07-2009 02:04
First time poster, long time sailer. Richkd Meets & Greets 16 31-08-2008 07:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.