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Old 02-09-2011, 21:41   #16
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Re: Live Aboard

is humid here--sweatin doesnt begin....
but only when i go outside--aircond is awesome. mebbe boat units are more efficient....mine isnt marina--mine is CHEAP . i san LG unit. will do.
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Old 02-09-2011, 23:13   #17
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Re: Live Aboard

To answer another of your questions, get an electric windlass. As you said, you are not getting any younger.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:27   #18
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Re: Live Aboard

I would be very surprised if you can keep a Lagoon 44 and yourself going for $1000 to $2000 per month. Even if you do all your own work. Even if you don't insure. The boat won't get the maintenance it will need, and its value and your enjoyment will deteriorate because of that.

My suggestion would be to plan on a less complicated boat that can be sustained for that amount. If that means a smaller and less expensive boat, so be it and keep the money you don't spend for outfitting and a rainy day.

By the way, if you buy a cat that is, say, five years old, in the Caribbean, you may not lose so much when you eventually sell it.

I am betting that after six months, you will miss the US. After you come back for a few weeks, you will wonder why you missed it, and if you go back out, you won't, anymore......until the kids get kids. Does your wife understand that she won't see the grandkids every weekend?

Cheers,
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:37   #19
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Re: Live aboard

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Originally Posted by jdisarro View Post
With a 40-47 ft Cat, you will Probably have a generator, AC, and even a washer dryer. Why would you want to rough it. Believe me if you have AC, you will use it, being on the hook with everything you need, there is really nothing like it, Also a water maker, we use our watermaker to even wash the decks with fresh water. If you intent to Charter all the extra bells and whistles will be needed, because your guests will use way to much water electricity and you will be happy you had it.
With allthose systems that will go wrong, wonder what percentage of time you'll be spending in a boatyard.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:09   #20
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Re: Live Aboard

Tim, you understand what I am going through, mentally. I'm not sure why the boat will cost so much to maintain. I'm looking at 2008 boat. Other then sails, I would expect the gen, ac, water maker, and engines to last another 4 years. The broker seems to think so, but he wants me to buy the boat. Monohull is out, so what other boat would be cheaper? I also plan to equip the boat with enough panels to keep the generator use to a min.

Food is a big question mark too. The food was very expensive on every island we visited. We always rented a car and went off the path, but groceries were double in price and in may cases, unhealthy. On one island, if we didn't catch fish, we were not going to eat. Not much else there, except for rice and beans. I can only eat so much fish.

The deal made with my wife, is that we come back when the grand kids arrive. No promises to go back out, until she is ready. She did give me the ok to go back to the boat. :}
Did I mention that I am an avid kitesurfer? My whole life revolves around the sport and is the driving force behind getting the boat. I don't intend to sit around in the Caribbean and bake.
Thanks again for the candid input.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:42   #21
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Re: Live Aboard

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Originally Posted by Fearnow View Post
. . . I'm not sure why the boat will cost so much to maintain. I'm looking at 2008 boat. Other then sails, I would expect the gen, ac, water maker, and engines to last another 4 years. . . .

Food is a big question mark too. The food was very expensive on every island we visited. . . .

Did I mention that I am an avid kitesurfer? My whole life revolves around the sport and is the driving force behind getting the boat.. . .
In reality with a brand new boat you may be 4 years without too many mechanical problems, but with a used boat you are lucky to get 4 months before the money needs to start flowing for repairs/replacement parts. Boats are a lot like space shuttles, there are hundreds and hundreds of parts and the sun and seas are not very kind to mechanical things. Upkeep maintenance alone will run several hundred dollars per month averaged over a year.
- - Pumps, inverters, chargers, refrig, a/c, etc., all break down and the parts start at about $400 each and even more if you have to import them from the USA or Europe. If you cannot do the repairs yourself the labor will probably cost 3 to 4 times the cost of the part. Haul-outs for servicing, repairs and bottom jobs for a catamaran are a major expense and can be expected to occur every 2 years plus or minus a half year.
- - On the brighter side, food is not as expensive as you think. In the islands you learn where to buy foodstuffs at greatly reduced prices from what you see in the charter/tourist food stores. Comparing our own food costs per month after a decade in the Caribbean with food costs here in Florida we are noticing that we are spending twice as much for the food on land versus when we were living on the boat. So expect that cost to be much lower.
- - All in all, living full time on a catamaran I would suggest a minimum budget closer to $3K per month to be comfortable and not have to "give it up." Be aware that some for months your costs will be very low but then something will break and costs will skyrocket until it is fixed and you can get back out there. So the monthly average will be dragged up. Annually the costs are pretty stable for a given size boat and sailing location, but we get our money per month so you have to be strict and put away money each month for those big cost months that will come up.
- - Also on the plus side, kite surfing is really big in the Caribbean and having a platform (boat) to get to the little sand spit islands is the best. I have seen charterers who charter boats just to be able to get to these great kite surfing sites.
- - Your ideas are very main stream with what is currently happening out there in the cruising world of the Caribbean basin. You will find a lot of folks out there doing exactly what you are anticipating. Just be aware that it does cost money and the larger the boat the more it costs. And catamarans cost even more. Are they worth it? By counting the number of couples on cruising catamarans these days the answer is a resounding - yes.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:48   #22
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Re: Live Aboard

We live aboard a 37 lagoon with quite a few bells and whistles, nothing fancy, but we do have AC, gen. solar panels,etc. etc. We live aboard for around 1.5k per month including food etc. etc.
I agree with the others, 44 ft is a big cat!!!!!!!!! I would go smaller and use the extra money for cruising kitty.
You will learn to do without A LOT of stuff, and won't miss it!!! So smaller works, and a smaller boat is much easier to handle by a cruising couple. A 44 footer is a big boat, and bigger equals more expensive, across the board. More money for purchase, maint, haul outs, on and on!!
If you are buying an X-charter boat be sure you are not buying a "Beds and Heads" boat. Lots of beds and heads and very little storage space. Try to find an "owners Version" which usually has more storage.
We bare boated for about ten years before deciding on the right boat. Then sold the house, and never looked back. BEST DECISION WE EVER MADE!!!!!!!!
Remember "YOU CAN ALWAYS MAKE MORE MONEY, YOU CAN'T MAKE MORE TIME"
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:01   #23
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Re: Live Aboard

I chartered a 38' catamaran for 8 people on one of my bareboat charters. I would compare it with a 50' monohull as far as space. I agree with others that a 44' cat will be expensive to maintain; I think the $3K/month would be about right. We are trying to stay below $2K/month on the monohull. Our food expenses are a bit more than the states, some of that is from buying things we "like" vs "need", like beer, chips, peanut butter that are more expensive. When we have a major expense, we cut back to beans & rice, fish, and the $6 bottle of rum.

We have some nice-to-have items like a genset, TV, laptop, and Sirius radio, but no watermaker. Running a genset to keep a refrigerator/battery bank happy, and motor-sailing upwind, have been our two major expenses. Diesel, oil, oil and fuel filters, a new exhaust elbow, all add up. We did very well on diesel (by sailing) in the Bahamas and Turks, but burned a lot heading East & South through the DR and Puerto Rico. It all averages out.

Initially, you will spend money on "professionals", but after working with a few I don't think they have any great advantage over a well-read and motivated boatowner. I did have my transmission rebuilt by a shop as I don't have the tools, and suppose I would have to do the same if I needed a head or lower end rebuild, but I have done most of the onboard work, including diesel engine, electrical, fiberglass, woodwork, rigging, etc. If I had paid going labor rates for every hour I've put in over the last three years I'd be looking for a JOB instead of the next harbor.
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:09   #24
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Re: Live Aboard

The reason maintenance can cost so much is that a big cat HAS so much stuff onboard. Also, I question whether many people's calculations include either depreciation or long term maintenance costs, like replacing sails, biminis, dinghies, engines, etc. etc. These things do, eventually add up. I will give you an example: for nineteen years, over a twenty three year period, I lived onboard a 33 foot monohull. Some of that was tied to a dock, and some of that was doing stints of long-term cruising. Over the 23 years, I learned to do almost everything on that boat, and I had a very good idea of what it really cost to keep a boat in "like-new" shape, because I had to deal with the things that take a long time to need replacing, but eventually do. If I had let the boat deteriorate, of course, I could have bragged about how little I spent (I really did not spend much on myself!), but I would have paid for it in the end, in the form of an almost worthless, beat-up boat. There are plenty out there.

I found that my maintenance figures were higher than almost anyone else's, not counting those who did not do much of their own maintenance. On the other hand, at the end of those 24 years, I had a boat that was in excellent mechanical and cosmetic shape, had good sails and a nice dinghy, good upholstery and dodger, and that I could take wherever at the drop of a hat, or sell, for that matter. Many of those on the minimum budgets had badly deteriorated boats stuck somewhere. Of course, those with really simple boats were chugging along just fine, a lesson that is well learned.

So, I thought I had the answer....and then I bought Jet Stream, a 45 foot cat. It has all the systems, and I added quite a few. The reason, and a good one it is, is that I do crewed charters, so the boat must be in tip top shape and well equipped. And that she is. But she costs way, way more than that little monohull. I compare the cat to a fleet of three or four of those mono's. Heck, I have 28 filters to clean or change, for example, instead of three! Get the point? Don't be mistaken, I love the cat, love to live on her and sail her. But, she is a much bigger deal, in every way, and if we weren't chartering, would be major over-kill.

Then, there is insurance. I am sure that a 44 cat is not a boat "you can afford to lose", so you will have to insure her. Depending upon carrier, location, and many other details, you will probably spend at least $6000 per year, maybe a little less, maybe a lot more. That is $500 per month, and you haven't even stepped on board! So, it really does add up.

There are quite a few nice catamaran designs in the 34 to 39 foot range, examples of which can be had, used, for under $200,000, and that are much simpler to maintain. A very small sample would include the Privilege 39 and 37, Lagoon 380, Leopard 38 (old model), Fountaine Pajot 35 and 38, Voyage 37, Gemini 105, various Prouts, and the PDQ 36.

All of these should be much more manageable, in many different ways.

With regard to those grandkids, there aren't too many grandmom's who are happy negotiating on this, so do your homework! It may be that you evolve into one of those couples who cruise half the year, and then go home for half the year. Many are very happy, but it does mean that you might have to (or have the opportunity to) work for half the year, which changes the whole equation. Think ahead.

On a completely different tack, if you are good enough, there are resorts that might very well want to hire a kite-surfing instructor. Age might be a bit of a handicap, but two that come to mind in the BVI are Necker Island and Bitter End Yacht Club. Maybe the ticket is to work for a few months every year and enjoy the boat for the rest of the time, without quite so much pressure on the pocket book. Also, the idea of a boat that specializes in kite-surfing is not a bad one, but it is a smallish market and brings up the whole issue of running demanding charters, once again.

Cheers,
Tim
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Old 03-09-2011, 10:10   #25
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Re: Live Aboard

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I'm not sure why the boat will cost so much to maintain. I'm looking at 2008 boat. Other then sails, I would expect the gen, ac, water maker, and engines to last another 4 years. The broker seems to think so, but he wants me to buy the boat.
Why do boats cost so much to maintain? Here's why: (1) They live in the world's most corrosive naturally occurring environment. (2) Every time you use them in even moderate conditions, you put them through the equivalent of hundreds, if not thousands, of Richter 7+ earthquakes. (3) Many of the systems on a contemporary cruising boat can be shockingly complex -- and interdependent.

If your genset won't work (which can be brought to its knees by a 5-cent part, or simply jellyfish in the sea strainer), then your AC won't work, either and you may not have enough electricity to run your watermaker, etc., etc. Because all of the systems are in a constant state of flux (vibration and corrosion will loosen hose-clamps, which will create leaks, so you must routinely inspect/replace, plus lots of manufacturers use cheap hose clamps, so you have to replace with expensive 316), you have to stay on top of your inspections and maintenance or run the risk of a serious problem. (e.g., loose hose clamp leads to loss of an entire tank of water; or, loose clamp leads to holding tank dumping raw sewage into your boat) There are lots of hose clamps, too! These are just a couple of examples.

A caution about brokers: Despite their friendly approach, they are not your friend. Unless you have an unusual and very specific contract between you and the broker, they have no fiduciary responsibility to you, whatsoever. Their only loyalty is to making the deal. Some brokers will go above and beyond, that's true and those brokers are to be valued, but the key point here is: they don't have to.

So, your best asset when buying a boat is your own knowledge, as comprehensive as it can be. If you don't have that knowledge, then your next best asset is a trustworthy and competent surveyor that you have chosen, on your own.

By the way, new (or even newer) boats will not necessarily be less trouble-free than a well maintained older boat. In fact, a brand new boat may well be more troublesome. With any boat, new or used, plan on spending your first year chasing down all the problems you didn't see, as well as learning the preventative maintenance schedule. Things get better after that.

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Old 05-09-2011, 17:03   #26
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Re: Live Aboard

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I would be very surprised if you can keep a Lagoon 44 and yourself going for $1000 to $2000 per month. Even if you do all your own work. Even if you don't insure. The boat won't get the maintenance it will need, and its value and your enjoyment will deteriorate because of that.

My suggestion would be to plan on a less complicated boat that can be sustained for that amount. If that means a smaller and less expensive boat, so be it and keep the money you don't spend for outfitting and a rainy day.

By the way, if you buy a cat that is, say, five years old, in the Caribbean, you may not lose so much when you eventually sell it.

I am betting that after six months, you will miss the US. After you come back for a few weeks, you will wonder why you missed it, and if you go back out, you won't, anymore......until the kids get kids. Does your wife understand that she won't see the grandkids every weekend?

Cheers,
Tim
Your charter looks pretty tame. It's not like your entertaining all day long. Your groups seem to spend a good amount of time on land. Also, you and your wife are crewing that 45' ok?
Over the weekend I began looking at 40' Lagoons. Are they cheeper in the Caribbean? I'm still going to keep possible charter on the table. Maybe 1 week a month. I'm glad to get all the posts, as the old ones are of different opinion. I belong to a group of about 250 kitesurfers and plan to solicit possible customers. I'm also scuba certified so I may include that along with snorkel. Your down there in the BVI. How is it during storms. Do you run for land or sit in a cove and bounce around? Any thoughts on health care? Good places to go rather then run back to the US.

I'm not planning to stay in the BVI as we'll be following the wind. Any recommendations on preferred chart plotters, and weather nav? I have no desire getting slammed by a storm.
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Old 05-09-2011, 17:59   #27
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Re: Live Aboard

Uh, Fearnow, I don't know what I said that makes you think our charters look "tame"! We would not do them if we did not enjoy them, but they are extremely hard work. Pretty much 16 - 18 hour days for both of us, yes, indeed entertaining the guests for the whole time, and fixing things, hopefully without the guests even realizing that they have broken. Last year we did 122 days of charter. In addition, there are the 24 hour turnarounds (even 48 hours is not a breeze), working sometimes weeks in a row with no time off, and the strain of keeping everything working, or fixing it during that 24 hour turnaround. That includes engines, gensets, watermakers, toilets, stoves, aircons, refrigeration, etc. etc. Many folks think it is easy......until they try it! The only thing that makes the boating life difficult is a schedule, and if you doing charters, everything is on a schedule.

The good side is that the people are usually very nice, and the charters pay for the boat for the rest of the year. Also, in the BVI, support is really good. Much better than for private boats, as we are the bread and butter, and better than anywhere else I have ever been.

Everyone has the idea of doing one charter a month....doesn't work that way, at all. It is a seasonal business, and you work very hard when the work is there. Off season, there is nothing. If you are booked by brokers, they need to know that you are actually a serious business. Same as in any other business, and this IS a business.

Your biggest advantage is that you may have a ready made clientele. Some people come to this business with that in their plan. If you can capitalize on that, you can definitely work around brokers and set up your own schedule. But I would really check that out, first. I came to this business after a long career as a golf pro....thought I could combine the two. That has worked out only rarely. But, kitesurfers might be a good group. LOT of gear to carry around however. SCUBA works, but adds lots of gear and wear and tear, and there are lots of boats in that niche.

If you are really serious about the charter business, I would suggest you get a Captain's license (at least a 50 Ton license, not an OUPV Six pac), your wife takes a chef course, and that you then get a job with an established charter business, such as Festiva, or the crewed divisions of either the Moorings or Voyage. These jobs are not the easiest to get, but if you are in the right place at the right time, it helps. Do this for a year, and then evaluate. You will have learned a very great deal that will help you if you go out on your own, or even if you don't. And, you will have risked only your time, not your fortune nor your marriage. Well, hopefully not your marriage!

With regard to your storm questions, may I be impolite and ask precisely how much experience you have of the caribbean, and sailing, in general? Your experience and good judgement will be the two most important assets you can have when it comes to staying safe and analysing weather risks. Every situation is different but don't worry, sooner or later you will get slammed by a storm and bounced around. It is what you do to plan for it, prepare for it, and weather it, and maybe recover from it, that counts. This goes for the entire Caribbean and the Bahamas.....and a good bit of the East Coast, too.

Cheers,
Tim
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Old 05-09-2011, 19:52   #28
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Fantastic reply Tim. I totally agree. My charter experience was in Australia but exactly the same. Got to keep the selling agents happy, the clients happy, the wife happy and the boat happy - all to a schedule, the killer of easy sailing.
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Old 05-09-2011, 20:39   #29
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Re: Live Aboard

Likewise, I agree with Tim Schasf - the crewed charter business is a tough road and usually feast or famine due to seasonal weather, economic conditions back in your potential customer's home country and lots of other complications.
- - But the Kitesurfing niche is not really exploited much right now so you may have a new market there. But the area where I have seen the most kitesurfing is in the Windward islands. And it takes a lot of experience to know where to go to find the good launching sites and sea conditions while having plenty of wind.
- - There is also the complications of operating a commercial business in the waters of a foreign country.
- - I would suggest a couple/three years of exploring by yourself to locate and test out the "best" locations would be wise before entertaining the idea of engaging in any crewed charter operations.
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Old 06-09-2011, 16:54   #30
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Re: Live Aboard

Back to no charters, for now. Thanks again to all of you, for taking time to offer up information that I didn't find in other threads! Tim, I didn't mean to make light of your charter. I just didn't realize how the business worked. So far, I plan to go with Osirissail's advise, and get to know the area for a year or two. I don't know the Caribbean very well by boat, and will be spending most of my time on the windward islands. Going with a smaller boat makes sense too. I want to be able to solo when I want, if necessary. My experience as a sailor is minimal. I've spent most of my life with power boats, and day sail cats on the Chesapeake. I have been caught in storms, but not in the ocean. I've never experienced seas over 10' and don't think I want to. The broker said that, I would have to work pretty hard to get caught in a bad situation.
I know, I know, he wants me to buy a boat.

Any other general thoughts are greatly appreciated. Any special places to go see? Good harbors that beg you to stay? Places to stay away from? Kat, my wife, and I were anchored in a river off the Chesapeake, when some guys tried to rob us at night. Lucky for me I had a flare gun, pointed right at his chest. Glad he used common sense and off boarded my boat.

I hope to find "the boat" in the next few weeks and be out on the water by January. Not sure where everything is going to go. The storage will probably cost more than my mortgage payment.

Teeto, you're not doing the charter anymore? If I can ask why, and what are you doing?
Thanks again, you guys for your help and time.
Fearnow
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