Lithe or Large - displacement by the numbers

[tp12]

Originally Posted by REsCat

44c while I agree with the daggerboard "plus" I totally disagree with the DBs and minikeels cancelling each other out as it pertains to how they are implemented on my boat.
I obviously can't speak for other boats with both as I am not familiar with them.
If you saw the size and profile of mine, where they are located, the many benefits they give, and if you sailed my boat on a thorough, long term basis,
you would not make that assertion.

Regarding beaching, I was alluding to your boat (with photos I believe you have posted) with my reply to Caveman above and I recognize that AUS particularly the East coast offers many excellent ,potential beaching oportunities. That is not the case with much of the rest of the world I believe.

Bob

Minikeels add more wetted surface area compared to a boat without them. So there's more friction/drag with them than without. It may be less on your boat compared to others, with larger minikeels, but I doubt it's the same as not having them.

Have you got any hull profile pics of your minkeels?

There's places to beach Cats in Asia, that I know of. Anywhere with a tide that has a reasonably flat bottom will work. Plenty of places in the UK, for example.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by REsCat

44c while I agree with the daggerboard "plus" I totally disagree with the DBs and minikeels cancelling each other out as it pertains to how they are implemented on my boat.
I obviously can't speak for other boats with both as I am not familiar with them.
If you saw the size and profile of mine, where they are located, the many benefits they give, and if you sailed my boat on a thorough, long term basis,
you would not make that assertion.

Regarding beaching, I was alluding to your boat (with photos I believe you have posted) with my reply to Caveman above and I recognize that AUS particularly the East coast offers many excellent ,potential beaching oportunities. That is not the case with much of the rest of the world I believe.

Bob

My point was, (IMO) the big advantage of daggerboards is the reduction in drag when they are raised, ie on points of sail other than to windward. Minikeels, while having their advantages, will always have more drag than raised daggerboards.

[caveman22]

Originally Posted by REsCat

I am into 8+ years with it so I guess it agrees with me . I love my boat and at times I hate my boat. When we are sailing, passages, fighting any kind of weather, cruising to new places, sitting at anchor... we are glad/thankfull we own this boat.
When I am redoing/re-engineering all the wiring and plumbing and other systems...then I develop some hate.
But to be fair its not the boats fault but the people who engineered and installed the systems... its a French thing...
The boat sails and handles superbly well and is very, very simple and when you own one or study one in depth and compare it to other boats feature by feature this becomes very apparent imo.
We keep our boat simple and light, as we are comfortable with this and when the wind puffs up or down we feel it. It has mechanical steering which we love for the rudder,water sense.
The outboard helms are one of its best features and many here would shun them but until you actively sail, cruise, passage, dock etc etc you won't appreciate this.
I would not buy a newer generation Catana for many reasons but opt for a new gen Outremer if I was seeking a newer boat, which I am not.

"Pushing against 25-30 knt Trade winds and 2-3 m swell it was not pleasant"

Were you motoring or sailing and would this have been pleasant in any boat?

Bob

Bob,

We were sailing with one reef in main, 3/4 jib & leeward motor ticking over to give us best pointing. True was around 20knts and we were making av. 8 knts which was as fast I wanted to go with a number of non-sailing (= seasick) friends on board. I dont think anyone really enjoys beating into it in lumpy conditions and not a reflection on the boat which felt solid.

Checked out the steering system on the 42 (2014 model) and it appeared heavy-duty and robust. Poking around in the engine bays did show some less than optimal wiring and pumping fitoff .

Interested in you comments about late model Catanas - why would you avoid them ?

The Caveman

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

My point was, (IMO) the big advantage of daggerboards is the reduction in drag when they are raised, ie on points of sail other than to windward. Minikeels, while having their advantages, will always have more drag than raised daggerboards.

I am not disputing that fact but that is not what you said earlier and that is not what I replied to and challenged earlier.

this is what you said:

"To be honest, if you're going to have minikeels, may as well not bother with daggerboards. You sacrifice a major advantage of daggerboards, which contrary to popular opinion is NOT sailing to windward, but is the reduction in drag on every other point of sail. Just my view."

I disagreed with you on your above opinion as it pertains to my boat.
I am thankfull/very glad I have both and explained that to you.
I am not sacrificing a major advantage of daggerboards, I am enjoying the advantages of both.

Bob

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by tp12

Minikeels add more wetted surface area compared to a boat without them. So there's more friction/drag with them than without. It may be less on your boat compared to others, with larger minikeels, but I doubt it's the same as not having them.

Have you got any hull profile pics of your minkeels?

There's places to beach Cats in Asia, that I know of. Anywhere with a tide that has a reasonably flat bottom will work. Plenty of places in the UK, for example.

Tp12 ... I did not say that there were not other places in the world to beach Cats other than AUS did I ?
It was my offered, non-analytical belief... that there were not that many in the world as a whole despite that its a big place... but I am probably wrong. Cats are probably beaching themselves all over the world and I just haven't noticed.

I am not disputing that there is more "friction/drag with them than without" or "but I doubt it's the same as not having them" and have never disputed that but as it pertains to my boat and application those effects are minimal from my experience with my boat.
Mine are very well done imo, relatively very small, streamlined, structural and I am very glad I have them for lots of reasons along with my daggerboards. They work well together!

I will try to hunt up a photo but not tonight.

Bob

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by caveman22

Bob,

We were sailing with one reef in main, 3/4 jib & leeward motor ticking over to give us best pointing. True was around 20knts and we were making av. 8 knts which was as fast I wanted to go with a number of non-sailing (= seasick) friends on board. I dont think anyone really enjoys beating into it in lumpy conditions and not a reflection on the boat which felt solid.

Checked out the steering system on the 42 (2014 model) and it appeared heavy-duty and robust. Poking around in the engine bays did show some less than optimal wiring and pumping fitoff .

Interested in you comments about late model Catanas - why would you avoid them ?

The Caveman

Caveman I will send you a PM with my thoughts on late model Catanas and thanks for your account of that passage.
I agree that most people don't enjoy beating into lumpy conditions ... although when you read replies about that or have challenges thrown back regarding that you begin to wonder what some people on this forum really enjoy...

Bob

[tp12]

Originally Posted by REsCat

Tp12 ... I did not say that there were not other places in the world to beach Cats other than AUS did I ?
It was my offered, non-analytical belief... that there were not that many in the world as a whole despite that its a big place... but I am probably wrong. Cats are probably beaching themselves all over the world and I just haven't noticed.

I am not disputing that there is more "friction/drag with them than without" or "but I doubt it's the same as not having them" and have never disputed that but as it pertains to my boat and application those effects are minimal from my experience with my boat.
Mine are very well done imo, relatively very small, streamlined, structural and I am very glad I have them for lots of reasons along with my daggerboards. They work well together!

I will try to hunt up a photo but not tonight.

Bob

If we're debating the impact of having small mini-keels then I agree that it would be difficult to measure and therefore quantify. We could be discussing 0.1 knots; especially as other factors are at play making a controlled test difficult.

Regarding beaching, I was responding to:

Originally Posted by REsCat

...and I recognize that AUS particularly the East coast offers many excellent ,potential beaching oportunities. That is not the case with much of the rest of the world I believe.

When you add Asia, the UK, anywhere with tide and flat areas that aren't rocky etc, assuming you want to keep your bottom paint intact, I think that there are actually more opportunities to beach a cat than you may think.

That's all, I'm not having a pop at you.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by REsCat

I am not disputing that fact but that is not what you said earlier and that is not what I replied to and challenged earlier.

this is what you said:

"To be honest, if you're going to have minikeels, may as well not bother with daggerboards. You sacrifice a major advantage of daggerboards, which contrary to popular opinion is NOT sailing to windward, but is the reduction in drag on every other point of sail. Just my view."

I disagreed with you on your above opinion as it pertains to my boat.
I am thankfull/very glad I have both and explained that to you.
I am not sacrificing a major advantage of daggerboards, I am enjoying the advantages of both.

Bob

I can't see ow you think my original statement was much different from the later one. Both said a major advantage of daggerboards is the absence of parasitic drag when they are raised.

If you have minikeels you have the drag all the time. Small minikeels will have less drag than big ones, but still more than a fully raised daggerboard.

[Chablis 1]

Hi Caveman 22,
Was the Catana 42 Carbon named Chablis? If so I would be glad to discuss your sailing experince since that's our cat run by DYNC since January 2014. I've done that passage a few times and going down to Iles de Pins again in two weeks. Great destination but sometimes I agree very rough.

Hi Bob,
For the same reason I would like to share your opinon about the newer Catanas.


Thomas

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I can't see ow you think my original statement was much different from the later one.

44C, I can't offer anything more.

Bob

[REsCat]

Originally Posted by Chablis 1

Hi Caveman 22,
Was the Catana 42 Carbon named Chablis? If so I would be glad to discuss your sailing experince since that's our cat run by DYNC since January 2014. I've done that passage a few times and going down to Iles de Pins again in two weeks. Great destination but sometimes I agree very rough.

Hi Bob,
For the same reason I would like to share your opinon about the newer Catanas.


Thomas

Hi Thomas

I have never discussed other peoples boats and my likes/dislikes of them to those people, not in a public forum and not even a pm (and never will).
If we were sitting around on the hook or on a barstool sharing pro's and con's, hates, frustrations and glories of our boats... that's different

If a non owner asks me why I wouldn't buy a certain boat(s) then I might offer up my opinions and thoughts, but thats all they are.
I am sure before you bought your boat, there were brands, models,generations etc that you looked at that did not appeal to you.

Bob

[caveman22]

Originally Posted by Chablis 1

Hi Caveman 22,
Was the Catana 42 Carbon named Chablis? If so I would be glad to discuss your sailing experince since that's our cat run by DYNC since January 2014. I've done that passage a few times and going down to Iles de Pins again in two weeks. Great destination but sometimes I agree very rough.

Hi Bob,
For the same reason I would like to share your opinon about the newer Catanas.


Thomas

Hi Thomas

Yes it was Chablis. As previously mentioned really solid boat and really enjoyed the 8 days on her - thanks for the opportunity.

My only wish list item would be a chart plotter streaming system so that map could be seen from the helm position via a tablet or ipad. I imagine as a local you know your waters and hazards well, however it was a bit disconcerting not to have map visible from the helm position new to the area.

[44'cruisingcat]

People do beach them:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...s-78642-8.html