Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 25-07-2018, 00:10   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 101
Leopard VS Lagoon

Not trying to start a "Cat War" and I'm sure people have different opinions, but I was just wondering if there's any consensus about Leopard cats VS Lagoon cats from an engineering standpoint.

i.e. are Leopards typically faster or vice versa. ? Lagoons seem quite a bit more expensive than Leopards, is there an actual reason for that?

I'm new to "Cat shopping" and just wondering if certain brands are known for certain qualities?

Do most people consider the top "luxury cruising" cat brands today to be: Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot and Privilege? Or am I missing some others?

From what I read Outremer makes a good cat but it seems to be more designed for speed (less interior space).

Thanks for any insights.
boatingnewbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 00:35   #2
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatingnewbie View Post
Not trying to start a "Cat War" and I'm sure people have different opinions, but I was just wondering if there's any consensus about Leopard cats VS Lagoon cats from an engineering standpoint.

i.e. are Leopards typically faster or vice versa. ? Lagoons seem quite a bit more expensive than Leopards, is there an actual reason for that?

I'm new to "Cat shopping" and just wondering if certain brands are known for certain qualities?

Do most people consider the top "luxury cruising" cat brands today to be: Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot and Privilege? Or am I missing some others?

From what I read Outremer makes a good cat but it seems to be more designed for speed (less interior space).

Thanks for any insights.
Leopards are (here) more expensive for the same LOA, while Lagoons are also beamier. Prices for Leopards are more oriented / comparible with Fountaine Pajot cats of the same size. (40ft ... 44ft)

Also the options lists differ widely.

From the design, i like them, only the forward cockpit is a littltle questionable in my opinion, would prefer sealed lockers for stuff. I dont like a 3-4 ton of water in a gale on the ocean on my bow bath tub.
__________________
Lagoon 400S2 refit for cruising: LiFeYPO4, solar and electric galley...
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 00:54   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 101
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Leopards are (here) more expensive for the same LOA, while Lagoons are also beamier. Prices for Leopards are more oriented / comparible with Fountaine Pajot cats of the same size. (40ft ... 44ft)

Also the options lists differ widely.

From the design, i like them, only the forward cockpit is a littltle questionable in my opinion, would prefer sealed lockers for stuff. I dont like a 3-4 ton of water in a gale on the ocean on my bow bath tub.
Thanks for the great info. So Lagoons are typically wider than the same size Leopard?

Are Leopards known for leaking water due to the lack of seals?
boatingnewbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 01:37   #4
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatingnewbie View Post
Thanks for the great info. So Lagoons are typically wider than the same size Leopard?

Are Leopards known for leaking water due to the lack of seals?
yes, Lagoons are wider and have a little wider hulls.
Not heard yet about leaking Leopards, but some older had issues with the windows caulking in the salon.

Leopards and Lagoons are quite robust built, main market for both brands are large charter companies with mostly inexperienced clients (Moorings, Sunsail, Dreamyacht Charter etc.)
__________________
Lagoon 400S2 refit for cruising: LiFeYPO4, solar and electric galley...
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 06:20   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,042
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

There is not much in it between the two/three. Leopards and Fountain Pajots tend to give model numbers that are not reflective of actual length. Eg Leopard 44 is 42'7"ft long the FP Saona 47 is 45.73ft whereas the Lagoon 450 is 45'10" long with a wider beam than both so is actually a bigger boat by quite a margin. It is also heavier according to manufacturer printed material which have fuzzy definitions.


You don't hear of too many situations where hull integrity has resulted in catastrophic failure in any of these models. They all suffer from the same equipment failures related to 3rd party suppliers of engines, sail drives, navigation electronics, anchor windlasses and the like, (a lot of this equipment is also found in mono hulls). You might hear stories of some models that have issues like the early model Leopard 46 and rear bulkhead cracks, of osmosis in FP boats built around 2008, of Lagoon leaks in front windows in some models etc etc etc.



The main differences stem from personal preferences of those that have actually owned and operated them and those that make assumptions about what it may be like to operate one.



These mini keel types are differentiated often with the speedier types that carry dagger boards, Outremer and Catana for example and a number of custom designs. The dagger board boats are usually lighter, have narrower hulls, have less carrying capacity for the same length and, are far more expensive for the same load capacity. The dagger board boats are in a substantial minority of cruising cats.
Bean Counter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 06:54   #6
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Laggon unfortunately joined the club of fake model numbers with the new Lagoon 40.

Anyway, if you buy a Lagoon, you get more fiberglass and volume for the money, with Leopard and FP, a little more design on the furniture and fixtures, Leopard has quit robust furniture in the older cats, the newer started to copy the IKEA Lagoon boxed interieur. The more recent series of FP has also started to make the hulls wider (claim 25% more space), but the beam was not widened.

I prefer the older Lagoons, where the mast is not yet stepped back in the salon entrance. The 39, 40, 42 look nice, but the sqare dance pole at the door is somehow strange.
__________________
Lagoon 400S2 refit for cruising: LiFeYPO4, solar and electric galley...
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 07:59   #7
Registered User
 
Saleen411's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Discovery Bay, CA
Posts: 1,183
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Leoards have balsa cored hulls below the waterline....is an issue for some. Here is an informative thread on the subject.....

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lls-63556.html
__________________
"Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore"- Andre' Gide
Saleen411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 08:11   #8
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saleen411 View Post
Leoards have balsa cored hulls below the waterline....is an issue for some. Here is an informative thread on the subject.....

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...lls-63556.html
AFAIK, Lagoon is epoxy fiberglass only below the waterline, the structures above are balsa cored? I am not sure, if they use meanwhile foam. Check out hurricane damage pictures, they show you what it looks like down below.

I recently saw a L420 hauled out because she was run on the rocks, What I could see was various layers of differently oriented fiberglas and raisinn, no core marerial whatsoever, the cracks have been quite deep. Also drilled a hole in my L400 for the B&G forward scan sensor, massive fiberglass only.
__________________
Lagoon 400S2 refit for cruising: LiFeYPO4, solar and electric galley...
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 08:16   #9
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: TRT 1200
Posts: 7,265
Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
AFAIK, Lagoon is epoxy fiberglass only below the waterline, the structures above are balsa cored? I am not sure, if they use meanwhile foam. Check out hurricane damage pictures, they show you what it looks like down below.

Lagoons may use vinylester resin and an epoxy barrier coat below the waterline, but I seriously doubt they use epoxy resin. Pretty sure they are balsa cored above the waterline.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 08:18   #10
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Lagoons may use vinylester resin and an epoxy barrier coat below the waterline, but I seriously doubt they use epoxy resin. Pretty sure they are balsa cored above the waterline.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
I read it somewhere, polyester only above the water, deck structures etc. But who knows, all company secrets I guess.
__________________
Lagoon 400S2 refit for cruising: LiFeYPO4, solar and electric galley...
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 16:24   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 1,916
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

AFAIK Leopards are balsa core throughout.


Lagoon depends on model and even model year:
Older models like our 1999 Lagoon 410 and our 2008 Lagoon 380 have balsa cored decks and foam cored hulls with solid glass below waterline, and foam cored hardtop bimini. I have drilled through all these areas so I know for sure whats in there, and its in line with the description of the 380 up until 2010 (I think).

The latest build description of the Lagoon 380 now says balsa cored decks and hulls, with solid glass below the waterline. So either they changed their build method or got the description wrong.

Newer models like the Lagoon 42 / 40 have balsa core in both decks and hulls, including below the waterline.
I lifted the floor boards on a boat show earlier this year to check and they have uncored areas around the seacocks. BTW: The sales guys get really quick if you do this on a big show like Düsseldorf Boot.

No epoxy is used in Lagoons, polyester and epoxy don't go well together in a build. Epoxy barrier coat is something different than epoxy used in the build, and is an optional extra available at most manufacturers.


Fountaine Pajot:
I do know that our 2006 Mahe 36 was foam cored with solid glass below the waterline. Even most bulkheads are foam & glass. Again I have drilled 'em all :-)

In fact I have found very little wood in the Mahe, expect for furniture.

However I have read conflicting comments on core materials for newer models like Helia and Lipari, some stating balsa and others stating foam. No one claimed to have drilled in their boats so can't know for sure.
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 21:02   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On the boat
Boat: LAGOON 400
Posts: 2,347
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
AFAIK Leopards are balsa core throughout.


Lagoon depends on model and even model year:
Older models like our 1999 Lagoon 410 and our 2008 Lagoon 380 have balsa cored decks and foam cored hulls with solid glass below waterline, and foam cored hardtop bimini. I have drilled through all these areas so I know for sure whats in there, and its in line with the description of the 380 up until 2010 (I think).

The latest build description of the Lagoon 380 now says balsa cored decks and hulls, with solid glass below the waterline. So either they changed their build method or got the description wrong.

Newer models like the Lagoon 42 / 40 have balsa core in both decks and hulls, including below the waterline.
I lifted the floor boards on a boat show earlier this year to check and they have uncored areas around the seacocks. BTW: The sales guys get really quick if you do this on a big show like Düsseldorf Boot.

No epoxy is used in Lagoons, polyester and epoxy don't go well together in a build. Epoxy barrier coat is something different than epoxy used in the build, and is an optional extra available at most manufacturers.


Fountaine Pajot:
I do know that our 2006 Mahe 36 was foam cored with solid glass below the waterline. Even most bulkheads are foam & glass. Again I have drilled 'em all :-)

In fact I have found very little wood in the Mahe, expect for furniture.

However I have read conflicting comments on core materials for newer models like Helia and Lipari, some stating balsa and others stating foam. No one claimed to have drilled in their boats so can't know for sure.
i have checked my 2013 L 400 and is as per factory description. All wood is mold treated and quite moisture resistant. Balsa in hulls is layed in 0.3 x 0.5 m squares so water in case of damage does not penetrate from one square to other. 6 years and 20k NM, zero issues with lagoon build, excluding nacelle water collection that in my case needed $2 fix.
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 21:15   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 101
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
There is not much in it between the two/three. Leopards and Fountain Pajots tend to give model numbers that are not reflective of actual length. Eg Leopard 44 is 42'7"ft long the FP Saona 47 is 45.73ft whereas the Lagoon 450 is 45'10" long with a wider beam than both so is actually a bigger boat by quite a margin. It is also heavier according to manufacturer printed material which have fuzzy definitions.


You don't hear of too many situations where hull integrity has resulted in catastrophic failure in any of these models. They all suffer from the same equipment failures related to 3rd party suppliers of engines, sail drives, navigation electronics, anchor windlasses and the like, (a lot of this equipment is also found in mono hulls). You might hear stories of some models that have issues like the early model Leopard 46 and rear bulkhead cracks, of osmosis in FP boats built around 2008, of Lagoon leaks in front windows in some models etc etc etc.



The main differences stem from personal preferences of those that have actually owned and operated them and those that make assumptions about what it may be like to operate one.



These mini keel types are differentiated often with the speedier types that carry dagger boards, Outremer and Catana for example and a number of custom designs. The dagger board boats are usually lighter, have narrower hulls, have less carrying capacity for the same length and, are far more expensive for the same load capacity. The dagger board boats are in a substantial minority of cruising cats.
Great info, thanks. I had no idea a manufacturer could claim something as a "45" and not have it actually be 45 feet, etc.
boatingnewbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 21:16   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 101
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Laggon unfortunately joined the club of fake model numbers with the new Lagoon 40.

Anyway, if you buy a Lagoon, you get more fiberglass and volume for the money, with Leopard and FP, a little more design on the furniture and fixtures, Leopard has quit robust furniture in the older cats, the newer started to copy the IKEA Lagoon boxed interieur. The more recent series of FP has also started to make the hulls wider (claim 25% more space), but the beam was not widened.

I prefer the older Lagoons, where the mast is not yet stepped back in the salon entrance. The 39, 40, 42 look nice, but the sqare dance pole at the door is somehow strange.
Thanks for the info! Do wider hulls typically make a Cat slower or faster?
boatingnewbie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2018, 21:36   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,042
Re: Leopard VS Lagoon

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatingnewbie View Post
Great info, thanks. I had no idea a manufacturer could claim something as a "45" and not have it actually be 45 feet, etc.

Yes they seem to "round up" to the nearest foot or two. The main manufacturers even though based in metric countries use their model number loosely associated with the length of the boat in feet, rather than meters - which I guess is really a marketing thing selling to the biggest market - America. In metric Australia for example a Seawind model is the 1260 which ones presumes is 12.6m long. In actual fact it is 12.45m long or 41ft. They already had a model called a 1250 - so maybe this nomenclature is used to differentiate the new model. This may also be the reason the new Lagoon 40 is not called a Lagoon 39 as this was the previous model and not to be confused with the Lagoon 380. At least Fountain Pajot give their models a name to help differentiate, it is the numbers they attach after the name eg Lipari 41 - (actually 39.2ft) that could be considered a "stretch".
Bean Counter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lagoon, leopard

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
380 S2: Lagoon 380 vs Leopard 38 jimlong Lagoon Catamarans 94 25-01-2015 16:09
Lagoon 41 vs Leopard 43 Clipper4730 Multihull Sailboats 8 17-04-2011 21:01
Leopard 40 vs Leopard 43 ? nettlesbe Multihull Sailboats 5 02-08-2009 03:35
Lagoon 380 or Leopard 404 ? Escapee Multihull Sailboats 11 11-05-2008 23:25
U'all Talked Me Out of a Lagoon - Leopard 46 ? Etienne Multihull Sailboats 45 21-09-2007 14:10

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.