Leopard VS Lagoon

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Yes they seem to "round up" to the nearest foot or two. The main manufacturers even though based in metric countries use their model number loosely associated with the length of the boat in feet, rather than meters - which I guess is really a marketing thing selling to the biggest market - America. In metric Australia for example a Seawind model is the 1260 which ones presumes is 12.6m long. In actual fact it is 12.45m long or 41ft. They already had a model called a 1250 - so maybe this nomenclature is used to differentiate the new model. This may also be the reason the new Lagoon 40 is not called a Lagoon 39 as this was the previous model and not to be confused with the Lagoon 380. At least Fountain Pajot give their models a name to help differentiate, it is the numbers they attach after the name eg Lipari 41 - (actually 39.2ft) that could be considered a "stretch".

you may be right there...

i was parked next to Seawind, 1250 i think, and to me hull length looked exactly the same as mine, which is 11.97m.

I call this phenomena inflation. Price is not increased for the boat of same 'name length' but measured length is less, so you are paying as if boat length is what name says. FP started this trend i believe. If every company does it, you are forced to bite

[smj]

The Lagoon 40 is 38.5 feet, the Seawind 1250 is 12.45 meters.

[LeeV]

If you do a search on advertised length vs real length you'll find several discussions. Same will all elements of your questions.

Much like politics, you'll find partisan arguments on every item worth asking about! ;-)

My $.02 after several years of looking:

You mentioned luxury; for true luxury, some of these would fit the bill:
Exquisite
Royal Cape
Knysna
Sunreef
Antares
Maverick
McCONAGHY

As I'll never afford one, we've focused on the "big 3," FP/Lagoon/Leopard.

Our observations/thoughts (opinions are like @#$@# - everybody has one!):

Leopard is the most robust, probably as a result of being built for their ocean waters. There has never been a documented incident of the forward cockpit causing an issue (e.g., sinking) The new 45 has more storage than we've seen elsewhere. I find their look a bit sterile; my wife's choice for a cat.

Lagoon has more volume. Those I've sailed on have a tendency to creak underway, especially when the wind/seas kick up. They seem to be a less robust build. They also have fewer choices for the interior. We just spent some time looking at two models; we could only choose 2 wood colors and cloth choices were also limited compared to FP.

FP has that classic "french look." I find the FP - esp the new Lucia and Astrea - to have a sexier look than the others. That said, they have their own issues. A recall has *finally* been issued for the Yanmar MDI units which have been failing left and right on FP boats recently, with owners being forced to replace them.

In general, all 3 are chasing the condomaran concept more and more.
All have door and latch problems - consistently through the years. Why they can't get basic things fixed is beyond my comprehension.
All have issues with crazing on the windows if not protected.
All have jumped in sizes and in price -esp since the hurricanes, when insurance companies had to hand over thousands of checks.

One thing we did that may help you is to join the forums on Facebook and elsewhere for all boats that interest you. We've learned more by reading the problems/solutions they share among themselves vs asking for opinions (like this one!).

Unless you have unlimited funds and time it can be frustrating. I have to keep reminding myself to slow down and enjoy the process of going to boat shows (esp Annapolis and Miami), meeting people, reading online, etc....

Try to have fun! :-)

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you may be right there...

i was parked next to Seawind, 1250 i think, and to me hull length looked exactly the same as mine, which is 11.97m.

I call this phenomena inflation. Price is not increased for the boat of same 'name length' but measured length is less, so you are paying as if boat length is what name says. FP started this trend i believe. If every company does it, you are forced to bite

Seawind 1250 is 12.45m

[Factor]

Originally Posted by boatingnewbie

Thanks for the info! Do wider hulls typically make a Cat slower or faster?

Slower

[danielamartindm]

Originally Posted by boatingnewbie

Not trying to start a "Cat War" and I'm sure people have different opinions, but I was just wondering if there's any consensus about Leopard cats VS Lagoon cats from an engineering standpoint.

i.e. are Leopards typically faster or vice versa. ? Lagoons seem quite a bit more expensive than Leopards, is there an actual reason for that?

I'm new to "Cat shopping" and just wondering if certain brands are known for certain qualities?

Do most people consider the top "luxury cruising" cat brands today to be: Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot and Privilege? Or am I missing some others?

From what I read Outremer makes a good cat but it seems to be more designed for speed (less interior space).

Thanks for any insights.

Outremer is in an entirely different class of cat than Leopard or Lagoon, which lack boards and the pointing ability/speed of Outremer and other performance cats. Cost differences aside, I've always thought of Lagoons and Leopards as being roughly "on par" with each other. When I was shopping for a cat, my choice$ boiled down to a Lagoon 380, an older Lagoon 410, a Leopard 39, or an older Leopard 43. Ultimately, I ruled against the older boats and so was left with the Leopard 39 or the Lagoon 380. I test sailed both, and the Leopard was faster, and more fun to sail. Moreover, I preferred the interior fit and finish of the Leopard. I discussed the balsa core below the waterline issue with several industry insiders including Phil Berman, a very knowledgeable cat broker. He said he had no problem with balsa core, and my readings of actual claims and issues confirmed that. The Lagoon 380 IS wider and roomier, and I've yet to meet an owner who didn't love them.

[Sbonder]

You mixed Privilege in with FP, Lagoon and Leopard, which I would not do.
My wife and I are in the initial stages of looking and have been to three boat shows, including La Grande Motte in France. So, lots of times walking on cats and some time chartering cats.
The big three FP, Lagoon and Leopard are true production cats and you can tell when you walk on them. It is not a bad thing, just obvious. The fit and finish are fine but if you look too closely on the interior you see flaws like, creaky floor boards, etc. It is the nature of the beast.
Privilege was a very different experience as was the Seawind 1600 and the Outremer 51. While those cats might have aspects you don't care for, the fit and finish are top notch and everything feels of higher quality in terms of material and workmanship. Hence, the price difference.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by Sbonder

The big three FP, Lagoon and Leopard are true production cats and you can tell when you walk on them. It is not a bad thing, just obvious. The fit and finish are fine but if you look too closely on the interior you see flaws like, creaky floor boards, etc. It is the nature of the beast.... While those cats might have aspects you don't care for, the fit and finish are top notch and everything feels of higher quality in terms of material and workmanship. Hence, the price difference.

I've always wondered why they don't offer upgraded interiors (identically styled furniture/cabinetry to the base model) using foam-cored high quality wood with more beautiful finishes and tighter tolerances that require a little more install time but look (and sound) better. It seems like such an easy upsell on a $600k cat. Every show walkthrough on youtube has the same "love the boat... not feeling the ikea interior" comment on these.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

The Lagoon 40 is 38.5 feet, the Seawind 1250 is 12.45 meters.

I was comparing hull length only and seawind was definitely not longer 48 cm. L 400 is close to 13m if include davits and bow sprit.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I was comparing hull length only and seawind was definitely not longer 48 cm. L 400 is close to 13m if include davits and bow sprit.

According to the manufacturers specs you are incorrect, and no you don't include bowsprit and davits.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[boatingnewbie]

Originally Posted by LeeV

If you do a search on advertised length vs real length you'll find several discussions. Same will all elements of your questions.

Much like politics, you'll find partisan arguments on every item worth asking about! ;-)

My $.02 after several years of looking:

You mentioned luxury; for true luxury, some of these would fit the bill:
Exquisite
Royal Cape
Knysna
Sunreef
Antares
Maverick
McCONAGHY

As I'll never afford one, we've focused on the "big 3," FP/Lagoon/Leopard.

Our observations/thoughts (opinions are like @#$@# - everybody has one!):

Leopard is the most robust, probably as a result of being built for their ocean waters. There has never been a documented incident of the forward cockpit causing an issue (e.g., sinking) The new 45 has more storage than we've seen elsewhere. I find their look a bit sterile; my wife's choice for a cat.

Lagoon has more volume. Those I've sailed on have a tendency to creak underway, especially when the wind/seas kick up. They seem to be a less robust build. They also have fewer choices for the interior. We just spent some time looking at two models; we could only choose 2 wood colors and cloth choices were also limited compared to FP.

FP has that classic "french look." I find the FP - esp the new Lucia and Astrea - to have a sexier look than the others. That said, they have their own issues. A recall has *finally* been issued for the Yanmar MDI units which have been failing left and right on FP boats recently, with owners being forced to replace them.

In general, all 3 are chasing the condomaran concept more and more.
All have door and latch problems - consistently through the years. Why they can't get basic things fixed is beyond my comprehension.
All have issues with crazing on the windows if not protected.
All have jumped in sizes and in price -esp since the hurricanes, when insurance companies had to hand over thousands of checks.

One thing we did that may help you is to join the forums on Facebook and elsewhere for all boats that interest you. We've learned more by reading the problems/solutions they share among themselves vs asking for opinions (like this one!).

Unless you have unlimited funds and time it can be frustrating. I have to keep reminding myself to slow down and enjoy the process of going to boat shows (esp Annapolis and Miami), meeting people, reading online, etc....

Try to have fun! :-)

Excellent insights, appreciate you sharing your opinions, Lee. I'm leaning towards a Leopard (48 or 50) but still in "research mode."

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by boatingnewbie

Excellent insights, appreciate you sharing your opinions, Lee. I'm leaning towards a Leopard (48 or 50) but still in "research mode."

48-50 ft cat for a newbie? Good luck! I started off with 41ft and that was plenty

Btw: if buying new maybe check the lead times for new boats. For some models it may be way longer that you would expect

[Sawbonz]

Originally Posted by Thalas

I've always wondered why they don't offer upgraded interiors (identically styled furniture/cabinetry to the base model) using foam-cored high quality wood with more beautiful finishes and tighter tolerances that require a little more install time but look (and sound) better. It seems like such an easy upsell on a $600k cat. Every show walkthrough on youtube has the same "love the boat... not feeling the ikea interior" comment on these.

I just wish I could get ANY interior! My Leopard 45 was supposed to deliver August 1 and I’m now looking at October 21. It seems the plain joinery has become a problem as they ramped up production to fill out the charter fleet after Irma.

The last 45 sold has an estimated delivery of February 2020.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Sawbonz

I just wish I could get ANY interior! My Leopard 45 was supposed to deliver August 1 and I’m now looking at October 21. It seems the plain joinery has become a problem as they ramped up production to fill out the charter fleet after Irma.

The last 45 sold has an estimated delivery of February 2020.

you should pray a lot, that catamaran factories do not drop quality of build too much. Maybe have survey done when taking over boat so you can fix critical stuff by yourself and hope to get some sort of support from factory in the process.

Low expectations is the key to low stress levels

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by boatingnewbie

Thanks for the info! Do wider hulls typically make a Cat slower or faster?

Slower.