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Old 30-04-2013, 05:02   #1
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Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

I see these boats (and perhaps a few other names too) and can't help but think they all come from the same Robertson and Caine design. I know Moorings rebrands the Leopard so I'm counting them as such.

But who started it? Why don't they all give credit to the original design? Does that design even have a name (eg,. XR325)?

To be clear, I'm talking about all the boats that look so much like the Voyage 450/500. I'm not saying that's the original, just seems to be the most widely available currently.

Seems like a very mature, well thought out catamaran. Plus I've gotten the impression here that the design has some inherent advantages that give it strength, stability, and longevity. Also seems to fair better against creaks, rattles and various annoying noises at sea.

What's the story? Someone should have a website with history but I can't seem to find it.

EG., Anyone can easily learn about the Porsche 911 with a few mouse clicks, its detailed evolution, and every chassis code name every made all the way up to the current 356.

Robertson and Caine don't even have a Wikipedia entry.
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Old 30-04-2013, 05:12   #2
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Leopard aka Robertson and Caine aka Moorings, - mainly Simonis designs till mid 2000s then Morelli and Melvin did some, and I think someone else is doing them now.

Voyage - mainly Simonis and or Simonis Voogd designs I think

Schionning (Jeff) - isn't a builder he is a designer originally from South Africa but for some many years based in Australia. Schionning does a range of designs from flat panel Wilderness to off the wall G Force. There is also a Craig Schionning - designer who is related to Jeff but totally separate design studio.

So yes there is a link between Voyage and Leopard but absolutely none with Schionning.

There is a bit of cross over with some designers and brands, eg Lock Crowther did the early Catanas but he would roll in his grave to see them now.
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Old 30-04-2013, 05:20   #3
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Leopard aka Robertson and Caine aka Moorings, - mainly Simonis designs till mid 2000s then Morelli and Melvin did some, and I think someone else is doing them now.

Voyage - mainly Simonis and or Simonis Voogd designs I think

Schionning (Jeff) - isn't a builder he is a designer originally from South Africa but for some many years based in Australia. Schionning does a range of designs from flat panel Wilderness to off the wall G Force. There is also a Craig Schionning - designer who is related to Jeff but totally separate design studio.

So yes there is a link between Voyage and Leopard but absolutely none with Schionning.

There is a bit of cross over with some designers and brands, eg Lock Crowther did the early Catanas but he would roll in his grave to see them now.
These boats all look very similar. At least their hull designs, cockpit setups, salon and berth layouts do.

2004 Schionning Wilderness Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2002 Voyage 500 Catamaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Yes the windows and likely some of the rigging are different. But the basic setup IS the same.

I guess it's a tribute to the original design that it's been reworked a few times. Seems like it's STILL being reworked. To me that speaks volumes in any field or industry. The original designer should be a billionaire imho.
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Old 30-04-2013, 05:37   #4
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Yeah there is similarities, but the schionning is quite a different boat, and I mean quite different to the voyage. The hull shape is very different and the Schionning has bridgedeck clearance, the Voyage - well not so much.

Anyway - up to you I am pretty sure that each of Simonis, Voogd, Morelli, Melvin, and Schionning would be not pleased to have their designs marked as copies of someone else. I know Jeff Schionning but have not met the other guys. But I certainly know Morelli and Melvin's track record of doing really good boats. Including for example, the RTW big cat - Playstation.

Quote:
Yes the windows and likely some of the rigging are different. But the basic setup IS the same.
With respect that would make the lagoon in your avatar the same as A schionning GForce, and they are on different planets.
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Old 30-04-2013, 10:43   #5
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Schionning, really?
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Old 30-04-2013, 11:26   #6
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Yeah there is similarities, but the schionning is quite a different boat, and I mean quite different to the voyage. The hull shape is very different and the Schionning has bridgedeck clearance, the Voyage - well not so much.

Anyway - up to you I am pretty sure that each of Simonis, Voogd, Morelli, Melvin, and Schionning would be not pleased to have their designs marked as copies of someone else. I know Jeff Schionning but have not met the other guys. But I certainly know Morelli and Melvin's track record of doing really good boats. Including for example, the RTW big cat - Playstation.

With respect that would make the lagoon in your avatar the same as A schionning GForce, and they are on different planets.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I admire the boats and designers. But looking at the surface, however, the boats do seem quite similar. Particularly, I mean that the Lagoons and FPs differ from both each other and the designs I'm talking about by a HUGE DEGREE.

I also think a group of Voyage, Leopard and Schionning boats would look MUCH MUCH more similar docked together than a Lagoon 380 and a GForce.

These designs, at least on the surface, seem much, much more similar to me. I'd love to see some CAD data on them. Might be an interesting project. I may even just try to post some side-by-side pictures.

Part of my interest here is if in fact the boats I'm talking about, that seem so similar to my untrained eye, have all evolved into some type of optimal design.
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Old 30-04-2013, 11:49   #7
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

I believe that the current designer for R&C is Simonis, once again.
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Old 30-04-2013, 12:34   #8
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

I think it's more to the point that South African boats bear family resemblances. Where Admiral, Voyage, Knysna, and Leopard boats seem to be part of a family tree.

Admiral
Knysna
Leopard
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Old 30-04-2013, 12:38   #9
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

I just did my own side-by-side. The YW listings for both boats have, in their galleries, frontal views. There is a pretty large, I'd guess 6 inches or so, difference in bridgedeck clearance, AFAIC

IIRC, Admiral, Knysna and Leopard are all Simonis boats, aren't they?
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Old 30-04-2013, 12:43   #10
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
I just did my own side-by-side. The YW listings for both boats have, in their galleries, frontal views. There is a pretty large, I'd guess 6 inches or so, difference in bridgedeck clearance, AFAIC

IIRC, Admiral, Knysna and Leopard are all Simonis boats, aren't they?
Angelo Lavranos designed the Admiral 40 and the Knysna in my link above, Simonis-Voogd the Leopard. Alex Simonis also designed the Maxim and the Voyage
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Old 30-04-2013, 19:16   #11
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Topper, you are obviously new to the catamaran scene,as your comments show.
To say that these designs are similar is like saying all cars are the same because they all have four wheels and front and back seats. As you become a little more experienced and look beyond just small distant photos and look into specifics such as contruction methods and build materials and displacement,sailarea,underwater shape ,performance,etc etc you will look at these boats in a whole new light,and appreciate the sometimes very important differences between them
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Old 30-04-2013, 20:04   #12
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by contrail View Post
I believe that the current designer for R&C is Simonis, once again.

He is the designer of both the Leopard 48 and 58.
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Old 30-04-2013, 21:04   #13
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by djtopper View Post
I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I admire the boats and designers. But looking at the surface, however, the boats do seem quite similar. Particularly, I mean that the Lagoons and FPs differ from both each other and the designs I'm talking about by a HUGE DEGREE.

I also think a group of Voyage, Leopard and Schionning boats would look MUCH MUCH more similar docked together than a Lagoon 380 and a GForce.

These designs, at least on the surface, seem much, much more similar to me. I'd love to see some CAD data on them. Might be an interesting project. I may even just try to post some side-by-side pictures.

Part of my interest here is if in fact the boats I'm talking about, that seem so similar to my untrained eye, have all evolved into some type of optimal design.
Clearly you have not seen/looked over a Schonning in the flesh.
Take Factor's word for it they really are unlike Voyage/Leopard's.
There are quite distinct differences with the Simonis's leopards and the Morelli & Melvine leopards.

Seeing in person rather than internet photos will quickly reveal the differences.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:34   #14
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

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Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
I think it's more to the point that South African boats bear family resemblances. Where Admiral, Voyage, Knysna, and Leopard boats seem to be part of a family tree.

Admiral
Knysna
Leopard
Yes, thanks. That's more or less what I was thinking.

It seems somewhat similar to the "hot hatch" car trend. There are lots of differences and many look quite similar. To me, that is at least partly a testament to the inherent innovation and efficiency of the hatchback platform design. But clearly they are not all created equal by any means.

Whereas ... a station wagon is a completely different beast (eg., Lagoon, FP).

As time goes on, I will learn more about all the details that differentiate. That's also what I was fishing for here. I don't live in a part of the world that affords me easy access to many different designs.

Are there websites that let you look up a particular model and see who the designer was? EG., I don't see that info on multihull dynamics.
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Old 01-05-2013, 15:48   #15
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Re: Leopard, Voyage, Schionnig, etc...

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Originally Posted by djtopper View Post
Yes, thanks. That's more or less what I was thinking......

Are there websites that let you look up a particular model and see who the designer was? EG., I don't see that info on multihull dynamics.
You can look up the info quickly from the Catamarans for sale by owner website. As I wrote the specifications on each boat there.
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