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Old 07-07-2015, 16:53   #1
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Leopard 46 downwind sails

Preparing our Leopard 46 for offshore following tradewinds. Looking for used sails but not sure what the proper dimensions for the sails would be so that I recognize a suitable sail when I read the specs. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 07-07-2015, 17:45   #2
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Congrats on your boat .
You can call Kisten @727-319-3583 . She has all the spec's on Leopards
She is with the leopard co.
Also Just cats in Ft lauderdale 954-589-2343
Good Luck
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Old 07-07-2015, 18:23   #3
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Buy a tape measure?
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Old 15-08-2015, 12:50   #4
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Best to buy a 100 ft long measuring tape and attach this to the spinnaker halyard. Also attach a long piece of line to bring the halyard back down rather than use the tape for this. Hoist up fully and measure height above the deck and to the bows, or end of bow sprit.
Next, measure from bows, or end of bow sprit, to mast and on back to the spinnaker blocks aft on the hulls.
With these dimensions, you, or a sail maker, can have a good idea what size spinnaker you will need. I think the most versatile third sails are an asymmetrical spinnaker or Code 0 on a furler.


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Old 15-08-2015, 17:03   #5
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Hi Capt. Aubrey - what sails you can use depends a lot on what your current sail inventory is and what hardware you have to employ downwind sails beyond a basic genoa.

It's likely that an asymmetrical or symmetrical spinnaker would be a good addition, but each requires different hardware. Each has it's strong points and not so strong points. Also, you might opt for a reacher/drifter/gennaker/Code 0.

An asym spi requires a way to tack the sail to a fixed point forward (bow sprit) or along the crossbeam and sheet blocks on both sides extending way aft and outboard and led to winches. A sym spi requires (on cats) bow blocks for the guys led to winches and sheet blocks like for the asym. A common winch can be used on either side if rope clutches are used, otherwise two winches may be needed on each side. No pole required on wide beam cats. A reacher/drifter/gennaker/Code 0 also requires a bow sprit and sheets led aft and outboard turning through blocks to a winch. Of note, an asym spi can be rigged as a sym spi if you don't mind a bit less efficiency and an odd appearance.

So please describe what hardware you have as this will dictate your options. All this assumes you have a spi halyard and/or an additional halyard for a reacher/drifter/gennaker/Code 0.

Dave
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Old 16-08-2015, 16:28   #6
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Mmmh I am looking for a similar solution but for a leopard 40. The traditional afternoon wind sits at between 140-180 degrees every time I sail from the island every weekend.

I am tired of the heavy jib and running engines to help me home.

it's my understanding that asymmetrical spinnakers are not the best for this but a proper full spinnaker or parasail ?

Someone that loves down winding it with cats that can offer some good advice to both of us ?

Regards

MikeF



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Old 16-08-2015, 17:19   #7
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

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Originally Posted by MikeFergie View Post
Someone that loves down winding it with cats that can offer some good advice to both of us ?
Yes, read my previous post. A sym spi is what you want if you have the hardware - bow blocks for the guys and outboard sheeting blocks for the sheets. Poles need not apply. Very easy to set with a sock and gybing is child's play. The only fly in the ointment is dousing when it's breezy.

Dave
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Old 16-08-2015, 17:30   #8
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Mike,

It depends to some degree on the wind strength but generally...

The deepest asymmetric is called an A2, which is a deep runner designer for around 165 degrees off the wind. The problem is that it is a massive sail, and can be unstable so it requires you to work Thailand a lot to keep it flying well. But it will sail comfortably past 165 awa.

A better option is what's called a G3, which is a genneker instead of a true asymmetric. It trades off a little in speed and deep running ability for a lot of stability, and can be carried much higher on a reach without having issues. Where a A2 can't sail above 120 or so the G3 is fine to 90 degrees. But again the major difference is in the stability of the sail.

Whatever you do don't listen to anyone who suggests a Code Zero. These are specialty upwind sails that have no business on a cruising boat at all. They are solely intended to be used between 30-45 degrees AWA and wind speeds below 15kn. They also impart massive rig and sheet loads.


No asym will be as fast deep running as a symmetric, but just put in a jibe or two. The sails are so much easier to handle that it makes flying them fun instead of nerve wracking.
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Old 16-08-2015, 17:57   #9
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

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Whatever you do don't listen to anyone who suggests a Code Zero. These are specialty upwind sails that have no business on a cruising boat at all. They are solely intended to be used between 30-45 degrees AWA and wind speeds below 15kn. They also impart massive rig and sheet loads.
Greg, you are misinformed. A Code 0 is hardly an upwind sail, although I agree it's for light winds. For cruisers on multis, also known as a reacher, drifter, or gennaker, it's for broad angles with TWA 150 to 100 resulting in AWA of 110 to 60 to be flown with a full main. But this is not a downwind sail as compared to a sym spi.

Quote:
No asym will be as fast deep running as a symmetric, but just put in a jibe or two. The sails are so much easier to handle that it makes flying them fun instead of nerve wracking.
You are spot on here. Cruising cats cannot benefit from broad angles downwind - we're simply too heavy to generate the boat speed to turn the apparent wind far enough forward to make gybing downwind pay off, ala beach cats. Only the very lightest cats can do this. So DDW is the way to go and a sym spi flying alone is the best way to go. No main to get in its way.

Dave
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Old 16-08-2015, 20:31   #10
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Dave,

It is a common mistake, but you are incorrect. Admittedly this is a personal pet peeve, and is really just a semantic issue but still....

The Code Zero was designed as a responce to a one design rule prohibiting masthead jibs. While great in decent wind these small sails lacked power in light conditions and chop, particularly in ocean swells. In responce to the no masthead rule the C0 was designed, as a rule beater.

A Code Zero has a very tight luff, and is typically designed for 40-60 AWA. This is an incredibly tight awa for a cruising boat to try and carry a sail for. And since most cruising boats have a big jib it isn't really worth it. To some extent the designed AWA depends on the boat and the sail manufacturer, but a true code zero is only for upwind, and only for light air, before the boat would be powered up with the largest Genoa on the boat.

What you are talking about is properly called a Code 1 or a Code 2 which is similar, but has a deeper draft, higher clew, and a much wider wind angle. The confusion comes in since a number of sail lofts have tried to capitalize on the name recognition of a C0 by brakeing naming conventions and making things called 'cruising C0's' or 'reaching C0's'. But these are really just C1-3's with a different label.

Just a little history... By convention spinnakers are labeled with a letter and a number, the letter S-symmetrical A-Asymetrical or G-genneker. The numbers refer to the wind angle and strength they were intended for.

1 - light air reacher
2 - light air runner
3 - medium air reacher
4 - medium air runner
5 - heavy air reacher
6 - crazy heavy air (30+kn) runner

When the C0 was designed there was no naming convention that it fit, but since it was a higher pointing sail than the 1A it got called a 0A.

For cruising I prefer as broad a range as possible, which is why I recommend the A2. It is designed around 115-165 AWA which is very broad and up to 20kn. Which is when most cruisers should be dropping it anyway. Of course if you are going to stock multiple headsails it gets a little more complicated.

And don't overlook how quickly even a heavy cruising boat can pull the wind forward. Instead of running as deep as possible, reaching up 30 degrees with the right headsail can make a huge difference in boat speed. Which of course pulls the apparent breeze further forward, and allows you to sail a little deeper by the compass.
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Old 16-08-2015, 20:32   #11
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

As a shortcut take a look at this sail chart from North.
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Old 16-08-2015, 22:20   #12
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

If I remember correct, the Code 0 was invented and first used of one the VOR boats, and was designed to add unmeasured upwind sail area for light upwind work, but I guess the concept has been developed since.

Reading the OP. Did my first Atlantic crossing last December. Planned to used my asymmetric during day and jib during night. With the wind typically at 15-25 knots, and sometimes higher in squalls, I found the asymmetric too big for comfortable and safe shorthanded (two people) offshore passage making, and only the jib not enough sail area.

For next crossing I plan to have a genoa type sail made of spinnaker cloth and run wing-wing. For shorthanded, dividing up the sailplan in smaller sails feels good for safe sailing (avoiding trouble), and a genoa of spi-cloth is also light and easy to store when not in use.
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Old 17-08-2015, 00:36   #13
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

It was EF Language on the last Whitbread (that became the VOR). And yes it had to do with sail measurements.

The W60's were only allowed fractional jibs, but could use masthead spinnakers. The problem was that the largest jib was too small to power up the boat when beating in <10kn breeze. So EFL built a sail that measured in as a spinnaker but was cut like a masthead jib. It is actually a really silly sail in some ways since to measure as a spinnaker they had to distort the shape of the sail pretty severely. Specifically the mid-girth had to be at least 75% of the foot leingth and the luff has to be less than 95% the foot. These distortion a led to terrible luff tension, and a lot of compromises in the earlier generations.

Of course since then the rules have been changed in a lot of classes to allow for C0's specifically, which allows a lot better sail. But there are some restrictions. Which is why North sells a cruising code that specifically doesn't measure in under racking rules. It's actually a better sail than the racing ones in a lot of ways.
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Old 17-08-2015, 06:12   #14
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
What you are talking about is properly called a Code 1 or a Code 2 which is similar, but has a deeper draft, higher clew, and a much wider wind angle. The confusion comes in since a number of sail lofts have tried to capitalize on the name recognition of a C0 by brakeing naming conventions and making things called 'cruising C0's' or 'reaching C0's'. But these are really just C1-3's with a different label.
Hi Greg - I'll stand corrected on the details. I have what many cruisers refer to as a "Code 0" although I know it's not really what that term was intended to describe. These get lumped into that broad category of cruiser sails aka gennakers, reachers, etc. with tight luffs on furlers, either permanent or removable. These are not upwind sails, although when used properly on a good boat they can bring the apparent wind pretty far forward. Back to the original question, these are neither downwind sails, although I've used mine very deep without the main when it was already rigged and I didn't want to make a switch to a spi. So my reference to Code 0s was in this imprecise common usage with the other cruising, light wind reaching sails.

Dave
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Old 17-08-2015, 07:56   #15
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Re: Leopard 46 downwind sails

Stumble has his history correct, the original code 0 sails were designed for the Volvo RTW race to sail higher than other asymmetrical spinnakers. Now the term Code 0 can differ depending on the sail maker's description. We specialize in multihull sails and have come to term the light air, upwind sails, screachers. This relates to loose luff sails attached to a bow sprit, set up with a very tight luff, and trimmed inside the cap shrouds. The material is quite strong and low stretch to allow for high apparent wind loads. We build these screachers to be used upwind in true winds up to about 12 kt. ( apparent winds to 18 kt)
The common multihull code 0 is now a tight luff sail, with an anti torque luff rope, attached to a continuous line furler, on a bow sprit and trimmed to the spinnaker blocks aft on the hulls. These sails can not be used up wind because of the wide sheeting angles around the shrouds. They are between the screacher and asymmetrical spinnakers in size. I feel these are the best third sail for a cruising multihull as they are a great reaching sail from about 60 to 140 apparent winds. When used on a furler, with a laminate Code 0 cloth and a light UV strip, they can be left up for lengths of time, and easily unrolled when needed.
We have made a lot of asymmetrical spinnakers for catamarans crewed by couples. In most cases, the spinnakers do not get used unless the legs are long because of the effort needed to drag the sail up on deck, rig up all the lines, and set with a spinnaker sleeve.
If a spinnaker is the choice, I believe an asymmetrical is best. True, this is not the best way to go straight down wind, but, it is much more efficient reaching than a symmetrical and a more versatile third sail. It can also be used with a block on each bow to move the tack from side to side. Moving the tack to the windward bow, allows this sail to be used on quite low angles. Moving the tack to leeward, allows the asymmetrical to reach above 90 in the lighter winds.
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