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Old 14-09-2017, 10:11   #46
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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Originally Posted by MikeFergie View Post
A very light racing cat ? Hulls seem very narrow . I think it will not take a lot of wind to lift one hull out the water with this guy ? Am I correct ?
I concer with that some of these quick light cats are almost as powerful as beach cats . I flew a hull this summer on our PDQ36 and boy did that make me nervous. I am not sure if I have the skill to push some of performance cats to their max .ability Imagine sailing a Gb60 like a hobie ! Now if I was along for the ride, yahoo
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Old 14-09-2017, 15:18   #47
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

I thought Elie's story was an interesting one probably describing a pretty extreme local weather event. (Microburst or katabatic?) After recent events in The Caribbean I have a morbid fascination in what windspeed it would take to lift a cat. Obviously, with good management and awareness of cyclone areas and seasons, I doubt I'll ever run into such an event, but I don't have a problem with listening.
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Old 14-09-2017, 15:19   #48
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
I concer with that some of these quick light cats are almost as powerful as beach cats . I flew a hull this summer on our PDQ36 and boy did that make me nervous. I am not sure if I have the skill to push some of performance cats to their max .ability Imagine sailing a Gb60 like a hobie ! Now if I was along for the ride, yahoo

Me too.
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Old 15-09-2017, 13:05   #49
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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It's why I'll stick to a monohull thanks.
thank god for monohull sailors, if we all had shallow draft the anchorages would be packed.
PS and the next America's cup will replace the Barnum and Bailys circus.
Happy Sailing to all. r2akteamgoldenoldies
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Old 15-09-2017, 14:07   #50
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney



It looks like a very nicely designed performance cat cruiser. I had read some very positive comments about this boat by some members on this forum, comments that seemed perfectly justified.

This is not a problem with this particular boat but common to all true performance cruising cats.

Approximately on the stability of a cat beam couts one time, weight two times. This boat has a lot of beam, but as all performance cruisers is light. A boat to be sailed carefully and preferably by an experienced crew. It will be a pleasure to sail though.
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Old 15-09-2017, 14:11   #51
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

Elie, if 50 knot winds were really enough to start flipping cats then almost all cats on moorings would be upside down. My cat has spent 14 years on a long mooring exposed to the winter westerlies that can hammer down the Hunter Valley. It has been through more than 50 knot gusts a couple of times. I have watched it as it sat out on the mooring and have lived aboard it too for years. I have been in more than 50 knots front on, sideways (that was fun) and bullets and the boat just jiggled around but never went bow up.

Neither it nor any of its neighbours have flown over. Indeed I haven't ever seen the effect you observed.

Happy to have you happy about your mono choice but getting a mono just because you worry about flipping at anchor is probably not the best reason, how about better weight carrying, slower motion, huge fuel tankage, better resistance to movement caused by power boats, much better club racing, the feeling of a boat with a bone in its teeth. These are better reasons for owning a mono.

One of the perils of getting older is that I thought we had been through this all before. Cats capsize, monos sink - yeah I get it. This light cat got sailed over, which is what can happen with light cats - you can sail them over. Just like you can roll your car by driving too fast around corners. Do we stop at every rolled car and say "That is why I only go on trains - because the physics of car design includes the potential for rolling." No you look at the car and say - "Silly driver - he must have taken the corner too fast."

Same here - fine cat design, lots of Orams do really well. It is driver error. We really don't want multihullers to get on every mono thread where someone falls overboard (snide remarks about flat decks on cats stopping that from the sidelines) or one ends up on its side on a beach ("could have stepped off that on a cat") or someone loses a rudder ("we have two for redundancy") or the boat sinks ("my cat could never have put me in that situation"). The old anti multi arguments are well past their use by date. Cats are fine, monos are fine - they are different and both need good handling and proper seamanship.



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Old 15-09-2017, 14:16   #52
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

[QUOTE=Polux;2479412]


This is not a problem with this particular boat but common to all true performance cruising cats.

Approximately on the stability of a cat beam couts one time, weight two times. This boat has a lot of beam, but as all performance cruisers is light.


Polux - where do you get this from? Stablity is a function of beam x weight. The two are equivalent as we are talking about torque T=Force x distance.
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Old 15-09-2017, 14:57   #53
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

Sydney airport has been affected by the strong gusty westerlies over the last couple of days. The North South runways are out of action. The one East- West runway was opened but unable to cope with the normal volumes of aircraft.
So the katabatic westerly gusts that probably caused this capsize are to be treated with respect. As a teenager I remember sailing a hobie 18 in similar gusty westerly conditions in Botany Bay, after an hour or so of thrilling reaches and 4 capsizes we headed for the shore exhausted.
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Old 15-09-2017, 15:54   #54
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

[QUOTE=catsketcher;2479420]
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Originally Posted by Polux View Post



This is not a problem with this particular boat but common to all true performance cruising cats.

Approximately on the stability of a cat beam couts one time, weight two times. This boat has a lot of beam, but as all performance cruisers is light.


Polux - where do you get this from? Stablity is a function of beam x weight. The two are equivalent as we are talking about torque T=Force x distance.
From a technical paper on cat stability. That is only approximative because location of the GG and CB will also be important even if unlike the monohull the cat's CG don't vary that much from boat to boat.

Exactly it will not be beamXweight but all points of positive GZ curve X weight.
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Old 15-09-2017, 16:14   #55
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

It just occurred to me that if anchored with short scope, a lightweight vessel should have less chance of having her bow(s) rise than if longer scope was used. This, a rare occasion that short scope might be preferable.

Most permanent moorings are installed with very short scope, often 1 to 1. This should provide enormous downward pull on the bows, once the buoy is submerged.

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Old 15-09-2017, 23:01   #56
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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This should provide enormous downward pull on the bows, once the buoy is submerged.

Steve
If the scope is 1:1 and there is a 3 to 4 meter storm surge this will apply an enormous upward pull on the mooring anchor. Especially if the both bows are now 2 to 3 meter bellow the surface.
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Old 16-09-2017, 00:02   #57
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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If the scope is 1:1 and there is a 3 to 4 meter storm surge this will apply an enormous upward pull on the mooring anchor. Especially if the both bows are now 2 to 3 meter bellow the surface.
And, if you sink the cat it won't flip?

Correct? I knew there was a logical conclusion.

Where does all this anchoring/mooring , monohull/multihull stuff come from?

A lightweight catamaran that was racing (= not being prudently operated) went over; most probably due to poor operation. Not much more to it.

When boys race, accidents happen. Whether they are racing horses, cars, motorbikes, billycarts or boats. Do we watch the crashes and carnage of all forms of car racing and say "Look how many cars crash, I wouldn't drive one"? Or can we separate the differences between racing and normal operation.
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Old 16-09-2017, 00:27   #58
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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Or can we separate the differences between racing and normal operation.
Racing is normal operation for a racer.
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Old 16-09-2017, 01:25   #59
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

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When boys race, accidents happen. Whether they are racing horses, cars, motorbikes, billycarts or boats.
YER YER .

You can't just wheel out the old excuse , they were racing so look what happened when it suits you.

A similar sized cat capsized on a daysail in Hobart a while back so what are you going to say in that case? Let me guess. If they had been racing they would have been more vigilant.

What about the two big Chris White cats that flipped on cruises in recent times?

Cats CAPSIZE.

The more performance orientated they are the more chance they have of capsizing.
Its as simple as that.
Sure , a vigilant crew can keep them upright most of the time, but eventually its gonna happen.

You can't have it both ways.

Plan for it with escape hatches, High Vis underwing paint and safe inverted survival spots built in.



If you want a performance catamaran , light with a decent sail area, then the chances of it falling over are going to be higher, whether racing or cruising.
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Old 16-09-2017, 04:24   #60
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Re: Large Catamaran Flips In Sydney

Add the correct verbs in these scenarios.Cars crash,houses burn ,planes fall out of the sky ,tires(tyres) blow ,taxis are a pta, politicians lie, cats flip and monohulls sink, wine good ,rum better.
All these things are true at some time. Who cares?
Ps . Pizza always good
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