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Old 21-11-2010, 08:07   #451
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That's the problem Mark, they seemed to be short a few "mere moments"? Just as the A42 was, just as the A Explorer was. 3 boats over, 2 sailors dead.

My question remains, how does a cruiser sail a boat that requires 24/7 attention?

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I don't know. But I know the decision making capacity for the 'go up' or 'go down' dependant on varing apparent wind, as discussed, is also too difficult for cruisers... the owner may have being counter intuitive instinctivly in mind, but the 'other half'?


I still reckon a good self tailing winch can be thrown off in mere moments as is so simple for instructions: "If anything goes wrong toss that line off and wake me up".
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Old 21-11-2010, 08:29   #452
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
That's the problem Mark, they seemed to be short a few "mere moments"? Just as the A42 was, just as the A Explorer was. 3 boats over, 2 sailors dead.

My question remains, how does a cruiser sail a boat that requires 24/7 attention?
Okay I'm a cruiser... definitly not a racer... nothing to prove to myself or anyone else...
Its perfectly simple to cruise a boat like Anna... undersail in areas and times that you know are going to be 'dodgey'....
What seems to be the case here is overconfidence and lazyness... the fact is it was not that they were down below that was the cause... it was the simple fact the Skipper was over reliant on 'electric crew'.. he pressed a button to alter course... each press giving him a 10* change... maybe 3 presses...?? for 30deg's... maybe more...
In the time it took him to do that he could have hit the clutch and spun the wheel putting the boat head to wind making the need to free sheet a more leisurely affair and much less critical..
Autohelms are great for normal manouveres but in times of urgency they do not think "****.. gorra move fast"... they just do their normal thing.
Just do a manual tack and an autohelm tack and time the difference..
It can be done but the problem is inexperienced sailors on boats bigger than they are...
Bit like the kid who's only ever ridden a 125cc M/C... he passes his test.. figures he's been riding maybe 2yrs so is well experienced and buys a Katana 1300cc... odds are he'll wrap it round a tree inside a month..
Just coz u can afford it don't mean u can control it..
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Old 21-11-2010, 08:41   #453
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Ater all that has been typed. I still believe they hesitated to go into the cockpit, and reef, and they were left with too much sail up when the poo hit the fan.........i2f
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Old 21-11-2010, 09:09   #454
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Ater all that has been typed. I still believe they hesitated to go into the cockpit, and reef, and they were left with too much sail up when the poo hit the fan.........i2f
i2f.... I know... but its so much fun doing the typing and teasing.... then sit back and watch the fun..........
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Old 21-11-2010, 10:51   #455
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I2F, they were reeefed.

Honestly, I would have sailed the boat the exact same way and have no doubt it would have been my ugly mug on the you tube video instead of these chaps if the places had been changed.

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Ater all that has been typed. I still believe they hesitated to go into the cockpit, and reef, and they were left with too much sail up when the poo hit the fan.........i2f
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Old 21-11-2010, 11:24   #456
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I2F, they were reefed.

Honestly, I would have sailed the boat the exact same way and have no doubt it would have been my ugly mug on the you tube video instead of these chaps if the places had been changed.
No, not really, they were not really reefed. The Atlantic is a high performance boat with a big rig. The first reef is not so much less than other boats that size under working sail. My last cat fell in the "high performance" category and I knew my first reef only took me back into the cruiser range. Most cruisers, I think, would have had 2 reefs in, or they would have been on-deck and off auto pilot.

Some had said that is not realistic for cruisers. I would counter it is not realistic for all cruisers. It is part of the mutihull trade off, and for cruisers that are not willing to accept those differences, they really should not buy one. That is OK. They are not for everyone. Really, I wish the manufacturers were better about saying that.
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Old 21-11-2010, 11:26   #457
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Tom, coming from a racing background I'll say without doubt cruisers don't sail a boat like a racing crew does. A good racing crew with 12 on deck will always have sheet in hand, watch weather and waves and call them out to the helm, will always be moving leads, adjusting halyard tensions, adjust rig settings and work diligently to meet or surpass targets.
12 on deck? If that's your definition of a racing crew then most racers don't race either. And of those crew how many are movable ballast or used only during maneuvers? Seriously mate, you're engaging in hyperbole.

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Sorry but cruisers do not sail this way.
Again, I don't know what kind of cruising you do or who you talk to. I've cruised a lot of offshore miles with two on board on my catamaran. We have a person on deck 99.9% of the time, continually adjust the sheets and leads and keep a eye out on the wind and waves. The AP drives most of the time for sure but that frees the watch up to keep an eye out and tweak the sheets. Offshore, especially at night we run a conservative rig but we still try to keep it efficient. We're mindful that sail changes are slow with two aboard but I've done a lot of racing with two aboard too with the same constraint.

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Cruisers cleat off sheets by necessity, they can't actively sail a boat like a racer. Are some cruisers more cognizant of trim then others? Sure but they don't cruise with sheet in hand.

So the question remains, how do you cruise a boat that requires active sailing (hand on sheet or it can blow over) as a cruiser?
Of course, the hand on the sheet or it can blow over thing is only the case when cruising if you've already made a big mistake or been extremely and unusually unlucky. Keeping a proper watch, having complete standing orders and keeping the canvas conservative is sufficient in virtually all cases. In practice, even folks who I think are much too casual about these things make their passages without any drama of the kind you are so obsessed with.

Tom
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Old 21-11-2010, 12:24   #458
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Honestly, I would have sailed the boat the exact same way and ..
Seriously?

You would leave a boat on autopilot approaching a squall, you would not move to actually being in control of the boat? And when dealing with an emerging situation you would push autopilot buttons?

You're having a lend of me.
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Old 21-11-2010, 19:59   #459
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I2F, they were reeefed.

Honestly, I would have sailed the boat the exact same way and have no doubt it would have been my ugly mug on the you tube video instead of these chaps if the places had been changed.
Well you got that racer's blood, so we may have seen you on You Tube. I seem to remember he was pushing the boat, and the first reef is next to nothing. When you push the edge of the envelope, sometimes it just flips open, or OVER.........i2f
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Old 21-11-2010, 20:23   #460
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Hmm: Toms words.....

"I think you're overstating the case. The Atlantic series have sail areas and air drafts very similar to cruising cats of the same size."

The pic looks like first reef is a big chunk to me? So is Tom right "same sail area"? Or is it a hopped up boat not safe for cruising?

It is an awfully pretty boat though.



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No, not really, they were not really reefed. The Atlantic is a high performance boat with a big rig. The first reef is not so much less than other boats that size under working sail. My last cat fell in the "high performance" category and I knew my first reef only took me back into the cruiser range. Most cruisers, I think, would have had 2 reefs in, or they would have been on-deck and off auto pilot.

Some had said that is not realistic for cruisers. I would counter it is not realistic for all cruisers. It is part of the mutihull trade off, and for cruisers that are not willing to accept those differences, they really should not buy one. That is OK. They are not for everyone. Really, I wish the manufacturers were better about saying that.
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Old 21-11-2010, 20:24   #461
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With one on watch? Where do you go, the helm or the sheet?

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Seriously?

You would leave a boat on autopilot approaching a squall, you would not move to actually being in control of the boat? And when dealing with an emerging situation you would push autopilot buttons?

You're having a lend of me.
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Old 21-11-2010, 20:30   #462
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We don't all sail the same boat.

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12 on deck? If that's your definition of a racing crew then most racers don't race either. And of those crew how many are movable ballast or used only during maneuvers? Seriously mate, you're engaging in hyperbole.

Our crew when racing is 18, sometimes that feels like not enough.

Again, I don't know what kind of cruising you do or who you talk to. I've cruised a lot of offshore miles with two on board on my catamaran. We have a person on deck 99.9% of the time, continually adjust the sheets and leads and keep a eye out on the wind and waves. The AP drives most of the time for sure but that frees the watch up to keep an eye out and tweak the sheets. Offshore, especially at night we run a conservative rig but we still try to keep it efficient. We're mindful that sail changes are slow with two aboard but I've done a lot of racing with two aboard too with the same constraint.

Of course, the hand on the sheet or it can blow over thing is only the case when cruising if you've already made a big mistake or been extremely and unusually unlucky. Keeping a proper watch, having complete standing orders and keeping the canvas conservative is sufficient in virtually all cases.

And I wish you nothing but fair winds and safe passages.

In practice, even folks who I think are much too casual about these things make their passages without any drama of the kind you are so obsessed with.

Tom
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Old 21-11-2010, 20:36   #463
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But for the grace of God........

Reef and a 3 in 6 to 12 true? Probably, on an A57, I would have had more up.

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Well you got that racer's blood, so we may have seen you on You Tube. I seem to remember he was pushing the boat, and the first reef is next to nothing. When you push the edge of the envelope, sometimes it just flips open, or OVER.........i2f
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Old 21-11-2010, 21:06   #464
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I had to go back, and it is claimed there was up to 62 knots of wind in the gust. I believe that's way over canvased with one reef!........i2f
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Old 22-11-2010, 11:28   #465
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Hmm: Toms words.....

"I think you're overstating the case. The Atlantic series have sail areas and air drafts very similar to cruising cats of the same size."

The pic looks like first reef is a big chunk to me? So is Tom right "same sail area"? Or is it a hopped up boat not safe for cruising?
Lagoon 57

Mainsail 1130 sqft
jib 431 sqft
screacher/code 0/genoa 926 sq ft


Atlantic 57

Mainsail 983 sqft
jib 438 sqft
genoa 810 sqft

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