Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-11-2010, 10:57   #436
Registered User
 
YOGAO's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: St. Augustine, FL - an unwilling C.L.O.D.
Boat: Maine Cat 41
Posts: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
But he didn't ease the sails. ...
You are correct, he didn't ease the sails, he adjusted course. That is why I said the first gust was a critical decision point, but not the only decision point. My response about heading down was in response to another poster's comment about always heading up. Clearly the proper response is multi-faceted, as Chris White points out in his STACS recommendation.

On my Maine Cat, I feel absolutely confident that if I had turned down in that situation, we would not pitchpole. The A-57 has a significant amount of mass aft. Had he turned down, he would have been reducing the effective sail area (partially blanketing the jib) and reduced the pressure along with the apparent wind.

Quote:
...I think that was part of Chris White's post--get on a close reach BEFORE the gust front hits.
I have read Chris' STACS recommendations multiple times and I don't see where he says this. He does note that large wind shifts are common in squalls. I do completely agree with his analysis, and note that he has bolded the recommendation to take the boat off of Autopilot. Chris points out that in 20 years only two Atlantics have capsized, both on AP. Indeed, once Kelly decided to head up, another critical decision point was missed by not taking control of the helm and heading up enough to luff the sails and getting the other crew-member immediately outside to ease the mainsheet, not furl the jib.

Fair Winds,
Mike
__________________

__________________
YOGAO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 12:05   #437
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hawaii
Boat: Atlantic 42 Catamaran
Posts: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
This is a powered up cruiser that is being sold to sailors that may or may not have experience. When you power up a boat and sail with a short crew these events can be expected. Look at Tony's boat or the ATN guy who flipped his Greene 40 in the Route de Rhum while he was asleep or Paradox the modified FP or the Conser 47 or the early Catana... Big rigs require active sailing which is not the way cruisers sail.
I think you're overstating the case. The Atlantic series have sail areas and air drafts very similar to cruising cats of the same size. They put them on wider spaced, lighter hulls with decent foils and get good performance as a result but in terms of heeling moment/righting moment they are a lot closer to the cruising norm than the racing one.

Also, at some point all multis require active sailing. Cutting the rig down buys time but when your short rig is powered up you're in the same boat as the guys who reefed their bigger rigs and will need the same skills to survive.

As to how cruisers sail... Well, I've spent some time sailing around and doing a non-scientific survey of cruisers sailing habits and I don't believe there is any particular way that cruisers sail. I've met a lot of sailors in far fetched places with serious cruising chops on fast boats (ULDBs, ocean racers, fast multis and the like) who sail very actively and take joy in the art and science of sailing in and of itself. I've also met folks who I wouldn't trust to sail my dingy across the harbor who somehow manage to muddle along and folks who eat and drink heavily on passage and sleep the nights through below... IMO, one of the great joys of cruising under sail is that you can sail any way you want and IME that's exactly what folks do. And, of course, it is even more complicated than that since I know lots of folks who love to race and sail fast in some circumstances and are happy to be lazy sailors in others. So, honestly, it doesn't make much sense to me when folks make broad statements about how cruisers sail.

Tom
__________________

__________________
tsmwebb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 15:22   #438
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brisbane
Boat: deboated
Posts: 672
Two years ago I met a couple who had just sailed a mono from Sydney to New Caledonia they had been knocked down twice on the way up. They had a small amount of damage apparently and I do not have any idea of their sailing skills but would suggest they were overpowered at the time. Having read all these latter posts re Cats and what to do not to do which you seem unable to agree on totally except that you need to have a crew at battle stations as soon as a change in weather appears. All I can say is I bet Factor does not want prospective buyers to read any of this stuff as I cannot see it being great for Cat sales.
__________________
meyermm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 15:30   #439
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Cats - monos ... really I doubt it's much about that. There was a race here last year where a couple of crew died after the mast came down in 50 knots winds. Meanwhile others were happily racing. The difference was those that were racing still had almost no sails up. In their inexperience or some other form of ignorance the boat that went down didn't see fit to bring their sails down. They were all monos.

They may require different responses but the requirement to respond appropriately to weather is universal. What sailboat is going to save you from foolish decisions?
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 15:48   #440
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,335
All cat owners should buy, borrow or rent a sturdy beach cat and get in a few days sailing in 20 knots of wind if they don't already have that experience. In particular, you should spend a lot of time flying a hull, then turning upwind, downwind, and easing the sheet. You aren't done until you have capsized and pitchpoled at least a half dozen times apiece. The answers on what to do on your cruising cat in a squall become obvious, and the only consequences are that you get wet and learn to right the beach cat.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 16:09   #441
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
If you think that buying a type of boat makes you immune from disaster you probably have very little experience sailing. The original report was nicely done so we all can learn. Beyond that the cat or mono envy is idiocy. It's length that matters not how many you have. Of course you should know what one does to do it well and survive.
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 16:57   #442
Registered User
 
Khagan1227's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Boat: In the hunt again, unknown
Posts: 1,330
When in doubt, I am still in the let fly the sheet group. I am of the opinion it can give you a bit more time to access the situation and make a sound decision on a monohull.

Khagan1227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 17:03   #443
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
All cat owners should buy, borrow or rent a sturdy beach cat and get in a few days sailing in 20 knots of wind if they don't already have that experience. In particular, you should spend a lot of time flying a hull, then turning upwind, downwind, and easing the sheet. You aren't done until you have capsized and pitchpoled at least a half dozen times apiece. The answers on what to do on your cruising cat in a squall become obvious, and the only consequences are that you get wet and learn to right the beach cat.


Throw in a couple thunderstorms, and a little wind stronger than that.

But you're dead on.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 17:26   #444
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
Having been in 45Kts apparent a few weeks ago with too much sail I would not have been comfortable on Autopilot. To me the first and most important thing to do if you get into trouble is steer by hand.

On an airplane - "fly the plane"

On a boat - "sail the boat"

It may not be important on a cruising monohull but on an A-57 you have to take the wheel because of it's performance characteristics.
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 17:32   #445
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
All I can say is I bet Factor does not want prospective buyers to read any of this stuff as I cannot see it being great for Cat sales.
Again - you have not met or spoken to me. So you dont have a clue, about what I want, at least.

Again for the record, I would encourage any boat owner to read about this things. Unlike some I am not a bigot, I simply have done the risk, comfort, handling calculations and made my decision, others will make a different decision.

To suggest that because agility - a 57 foot boat went over and therefore people shouldnt buy cats is as ludicrous as suggesting that because a mono sank off sydney the other day, people shouldnt buy monos.
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-11-2010, 17:35   #446
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
To suggest that because agility - a 57 foot boat went over
Oh my, when did my boat go over?

I think you meant to say Anna.
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 01:00   #447
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agility View Post
Oh my, when did my boat go over?

I think you meant to say Anna.
Whoops - SORRY
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 06:14   #448
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Tom, coming from a racing background I'll say without doubt cruisers don't sail a boat like a racing crew does. A good racing crew with 12 on deck will always have sheet in hand, watch weather and waves and call them out to the helm, will always be moving leads, adjusting halyard tensions, adjust rig settings and work diligently to meet or surpass targets.

Sorry but cruisers do not sail this way. Cruisers cleat off sheets by necessity, they can't actively sail a boat like a racer. Are some cruisers more cognizant of trim then others? Sure but they don't cruise with sheet in hand.

So the question remains, how do you cruise a boat that requires active sailing (hand on sheet or it can blow over) as a cruiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmwebb View Post
I think you're overstating the case. The Atlantic series have sail areas and air drafts very similar to cruising cats of the same size. They put them on wider spaced, lighter hulls with decent foils and get good performance as a result but in terms of heeling moment/righting moment they are a lot closer to the cruising norm than the racing one.

Also, at some point all multis require active sailing. Cutting the rig down buys time but when your short rig is powered up you're in the same boat as the guys who reefed their bigger rigs and will need the same skills to survive.

As to how cruisers sail... Well, I've spent some time sailing around and doing a non-scientific survey of cruisers sailing habits and I don't believe there is any particular way that cruisers sail. I've met a lot of sailors in far fetched places with serious cruising chops on fast boats (ULDBs, ocean racers, fast multis and the like) who sail very actively and take joy in the art and science of sailing in and of itself. I've also met folks who I wouldn't trust to sail my dingy across the harbor who somehow manage to muddle along and folks who eat and drink heavily on passage and sleep the nights through below... IMO, one of the great joys of cruising under sail is that you can sail any way you want and IME that's exactly what folks do. And, of course, it is even more complicated than that since I know lots of folks who love to race and sail fast in some circumstances and are happy to be lazy sailors in others. So, honestly, it doesn't make much sense to me when folks make broad statements about how cruisers sail.

Tom
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 06:23   #449
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post

So the question remains, how do you cruise a boat that requires active sailing (hand on sheet or it can blow over) as a cruiser?
I don't know. But I know the decision making capacity for the 'go up' or 'go down' dependant on varing apparent wind, as discussed, is also too difficult for cruisers... the owner may have being counter intuitive instinctivly in mind, but the 'other half'?


I still reckon a good self tailing winch can be thrown off in mere moments as is so simple for instructions: "If anything goes wrong toss that line off and wake me up".
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-2010, 07:27   #450
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,226
Images: 2
pirate

Re-Last two posts...

Carefully.....
Thoughtfully....
and not so Lazily....
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Niue

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Access to Catamaran's Water-Tight Compartments when Capsized schoonerdog Multihull Sailboats 34 13-08-2011 16:36
Go Large, Go Now Starbuck Powered Boats 0 12-06-2009 18:42
This Is Really an Interesting Read ! Beveridge Reef and Niue Trim50 Off Topic Forum 6 01-11-2008 13:52
Large Sizes Moog General Sailing Forum 2 07-01-2007 23:23
Sea Chase Cat, or similar large cat...? CSY Man Multihull Sailboats 1 08-11-2004 10:25



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:47.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.