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Old 02-08-2010, 17:26   #31
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I plan to be at the Alwoplast yard with Chris White later this week. They will likely have the best information. What questions would you like me to ask?
What was the cause? Wind, wave, flooding/free surface, loss of control, etc? What were the conditions (btw: doe anyone have wx reports, GRIBs/wx fax for the area/time)? Where was the watch keeper? What was it like surviving in the upturned cat? How was the EPRIB deployed? Did they have coms with SAR and how did that work? How was the rescue effected?

Cheers,

Tom
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Old 02-08-2010, 17:42   #32
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This was taken from the site "Cat Factory"

"Multihulls gained a bad reputation in the 60’s and 70’s because most of them were home built, not beamy enough, and poorly designed. But modern Multihulls are very hard to capsize. It really takes a monumental act of bone-headedness to capsize a modern cruising Multihull in winds under 70 knots. If you are so bold as to cruise around far offshore in hurricane zones, well, yes, you are taking a serious risk. But so is a monohull sailor. Fact is, monohulls sink about as often as catamarans capsize, which explains why Lloyd’s insurance policies on cruising cats are nearly the same for cats and monohulls of similar value. In short, monohull sailors are rescued from liferafts. Multihull sailors are rescued from capsizes. Where would you rather be? Sitting in a small life raft in a storm or sitting securely inside your much larger and more stable upside down multihull? For me, the answer to this is a no brainer."

There is a lot more monos out there cruising than cats, so I think the comparison "Fact is, monohulls sink about as often as catamarans capsize" would not be quite correct, a percentage per 1000 would give a beter comparison. JMHO
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Old 02-08-2010, 22:25   #33
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Anna Capsize details

Tom said:
What was the cause? Wind, wave, flooding/free surface, loss of control, etc? What were the conditions (btw: doe anyone have wx reports, GRIBs/wx fax for the area/time)? Where was the watch keeper? What was it like surviving in the upturned cat? How was the EPRIB deployed? Did they have coms with SAR and how did that work? How was the rescue effected?

I am in Niue, where the crew was taken after rescue. I spoke with the owner this afternoon.

Cause was wind. Seas were 3 meters, no other problems. They were sailing upwind under single reefed main and full jib in 16-18kts with squalls in the area for the previous 24 hrs. The squall that hit didn't look any different visually or by radar (they were checking each squall they approached). Wind built to 62kts almost immediately (62 was highest owner saw, but not sure if that was highest the boat saw). He tried to get to the mainsheet, but fell to leeward and by the time he climbed back, boat was going over. I did not ask if he was inside or outside, but he was either at pilothouse or in fwd cockpit and was alert. by the time it went over he was outside, so I believe he was outside for the whole thing. His dingy came up to the surface upright and he climb in that on a long painter. His crew got out through an escape hatch and joined him in the dingy. Epirb was deployed (not sure if auto or manual) but no other coms were taken outside the boat. NZ S&R sent a plane, then diverted a nearby ship to rescue crew. crew was able to swim to ship and then climbed a net ladder to get aboard. He will be here in Niue until the next flight on Friday.
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Old 02-08-2010, 22:47   #34
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Tom said:

Cause was wind. Seas were 3 meters, no other problems. They were sailing upwind under single reefed main and full jib in 16-18kts with squalls in the area for the previous 24 hrs. The squall that hit didn't look any different visually or by radar (they were checking each squall they approached). Wind built to 62kts almost immediately (62 was highest owner saw, but not sure if that was highest the boat saw).He tried to get to the mainsheet, but fell to leeward and by the time he climbed back, boat was going over.
Ok, so let's assume that's the whole story. Is that scenario likely enough to warrant the effort to design and build a system that automatically dumps the mainsheet? Is there another solution to minimize the possibility of going over in this type of squall?
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Old 03-08-2010, 00:59   #35
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Ok, so let's assume that's the whole story. Is that scenario likely enough to warrant the effort to design and build a system that automatically dumps the mainsheet? Is there another solution to minimize the possibility of going over in this type of squall?
In my last cat I had an undersized shackle on the mainsheet to car that blew when it was loaded to high

Went twice while I had her and yes, I was pushing hard every time and should have been well reefed.

I would like to have thought that it would have blown in this instance

Same with the heady sheets, I used smaller sizes with a spare outer case over the rope so as it felt like 12mm, but was only 8mm, these broke on several occasions as well, and cheaper than blowing sails.
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Old 03-08-2010, 02:10   #36
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Tom said:
What was the cause? Wind, wave, flooding/free surface, loss of control, etc? What were the conditions (btw: doe anyone have wx reports, GRIBs/wx fax for the area/time)? Where was the watch keeper? What was it like surviving in the upturned cat? How was the EPRIB deployed? Did they have coms with SAR and how did that work? How was the rescue effected?

I am in Niue, where the crew was taken after rescue. I spoke with the owner this afternoon.

Cause was wind. Seas were 3 meters, no other problems. They were sailing upwind under single reefed main and full jib in 16-18kts with squalls in the area for the previous 24 hrs. The squall that hit didn't look any different visually or by radar (they were checking each squall they approached). Wind built to 62kts almost immediately (62 was highest owner saw, but not sure if that was highest the boat saw). He tried to get to the mainsheet, but fell to leeward and by the time he climbed back, boat was going over....
Wow... Thanks for the report. Sounds like terrible luck.

The nearest we've ever come to capsize was sailing from the cooks to the societies in squally conditions (a "stationary" front). Same deal. Dozens of squalls had come through with rain but not much wind and one that seemed like all the rest hammered us. For me this is the multihull nightmare.

Tom
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Old 03-08-2010, 02:15   #37
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I see a few years back another Atlantic cat by the same designer fell over on the great lakes and was discussed here at length. Is there something inherently faulty with Chris whites designs? His capsize ratio/ safety record is looking a little tarnished.
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Old 03-08-2010, 03:29   #38
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I see a few years back another Atlantic cat by the same designer fell over on the great lakes and was discussed here at length. Is there something inherently faulty with Chris whites designs? His capsize ratio/ safety record is looking a little tarnished.
each design has trade-offs.
a cat with daggerboards, is much better upwind than one without. The problem is these daggerboards can "trip" a cat more easily into capsizing. I dont think the crew where unaware of the risks of this design, it just seems they did not anticipate such a powerful squall. The problem with cats is depowering them in a sudden squall atany point of sail. You cannot really practice those situations, as nobody is willingly going to push their cats to the limit, just to find out what depowering strategies work best at the risk of capsizing. Obviously here a monohull design is more foregiving.

I definetly would not say it is a design fault.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:04   #39
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Cat Man Do (Post 35) has a good idea here. Recovering the genoa/jib on a roller reef shouldn't be impossible, righting a capsize is. The main, I'm not so sure. If the Genoa blows out then the main will force the boat to turn into wind, depowering the boat (I've had it happen) by overloading the rudders causing them to stall thus allowing the sail balance to steer the boat.
These BLASTS strike very quickly, the reaction time is seconds, usually following a 'what's happening?' thinking time. In my case that follows a phase of 'Oo'er, what should I do?'
Again, like the other Cat Capsize just started, this wind would have laid over many mono's. In those conditions hatches would have been open for ventilation. Boat sinks.
Salvage chances 'Nil', survival chances adrift mid-ocean in a life raft - poor.
Alternate headline; Another Crew Saved by a Capsised Cat
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:25   #40
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[QUOTE=yeloya;495875]
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Yeah, but then that 'table' would blow the fallacy that 'catamarans are safer because they don't sink' They cost twice as much but they don't sink. So if you buy a monohull AND a decent quality Liferaft you won't sink either and you'll have plenty of money left with which to stock said liferaft with luxuries

The fact that monohulls are cheaper is another fallacy..If you compare 40 ft mono to 40 ft cata, yes, but (unfortunately) 40 ft cata is only comparable to 48-50 ft mono in terms of comfort and space. And yet, they do heel and are still sloooower..

cheers

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We've been over this before. On passage, there isn't that much difference in speed. If you compare the cruising class in the Carib 1500, for example, cats do not exactly eat up the course.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:33   #41
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I am in Niue, where the crew was taken after rescue. I spoke with the owner this afternoon.
Thank you very much - it seems you wandered into the thread and signed up just to post us on the real deal with this guy. Thank you, most kindly.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:52   #42
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Ok, so let's assume that's the whole story. Is that scenario likely enough to warrant the effort to design and build a system that automatically dumps the mainsheet? Is there another solution to minimize the possibility of going over in this type of squall?

See my post # 29. I LOVE big cats, but believe you can't leave them to their own mind.
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Old 03-08-2010, 06:36   #43
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I see a few years back another Atlantic cat by the same designer fell over on the great lakes and was discussed here at length. Is there something inherently faulty with Chris whites designs? His capsize ratio/ safety record is looking a little tarnished.
I dont know how you can say that. ratios usually need two things to actually be a ratio, you know like capsizes per 100,000 sea miles or something similar. On what basis do you deride the designer? On what basis do you say he has a bad safety record, On what basis do you question his inherent design?
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:26   #44
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So far this thread has remained pretty civil....PLEASE folks!.....lets not turn this into another cat vs Mono thread.

Very Interesting for us to come together and discuss possible remedies to this and cause and effect characteristics, but please keep the bashing to yourself...there are other threads here for your input... if this topic irks you please move on.
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Old 03-08-2010, 08:32   #45
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"each design has trade-offs"


Yes indeed. My gal and I do Captained & Cook charter cats for vacations. She of course likes the room and we are sailing in pretty much calm conditions. Though there seems to be a lot of windage at anchor. But, that's the Captains worry. Not mine when I'm on vacation. At home I am very happy to cruise with my 30 foot monohull and have not felt the need to look at another boat since I bought her in 1995. Including Cats. Call me crazy but, I just don't think this is a real good place for an escape hatch:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: A vacation escape?
Gee I wonder what could go wrong here?
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