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Old 18-11-2010, 19:25   #406
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Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
Why did it take just a wind gust to flip it?
It was a big gust.

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Old 18-11-2010, 21:45   #407
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Just a big gust, thats all it takes to flip one over - hmm
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Old 19-11-2010, 00:27   #408
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Originally Posted by meyermm View Post
Just a big gust, thats all it takes to flip one over - hmm
I thought you wanted a really short answer. If not you might read the thread. It's less than 30 short pages of text. Shouldn't take more than half an hour to read. If that's too much I suggest Chris White's essay.

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Old 19-11-2010, 03:24   #409
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See a boat sankin harsh but not real bad weather off sydney the other day.

So - Mono - a bit of weather, if thats all it takes to sink one - hmmmm
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Old 19-11-2010, 05:56   #410
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Originally Posted by SimonV View Post

Thats simple, Cats dont sink.

Tell that to John and Jean Silverwood!

Cheers
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Old 19-11-2010, 06:07   #411
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Imagine if as many catamarans flipped as monohulls sank. How would you sail the oceans without running into them, could be a problem.
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Old 19-11-2010, 06:34   #412
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Old 19-11-2010, 07:01   #413
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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I think the lessons have to do with watch keeping, autopilots, and locking sheets into self tailing winches. This was easily avoided.
Dunno where he got that:

Watchkeeping was not a big issue--both crew were on deck and alert
Crew size was an issue--with more crew, you could have had one steering, one standing by the jibsheet, and one standing by the mainsheet.

Autopilot was not the real issue--while steering up or down might help, once you lift a hull in a gust while on the wind THE ONLY SURE WAY TO KEEP FROM FLIPPING IS TO EASE THE MAINSHEET!

Self tailing winches are not the issue--they are the PREFERRED way to lock off the sheets, as they can be quickly and reliably released under heavy load. Do NOT use a sheet stopper! (When I talked to Chris White on the A-57 at the boat show">Annapolis boat show, he pointed out the stopper on the mainsheet, and said he was thinking of removing it--he tells the owners not to use it, but they still do).

The other lesson learned from Anna is that multihulls require ACTIVE SEAMANSHIP. This means reducing sail BEFORE THE SQUALL HITS. If it's night and you cannot see the squalls, it means reefing at sunset.
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Old 19-11-2010, 09:14   #414
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Just a big gust, thats all it takes to flip one over - hmm
I think he was pushing the boat too hard. I think he had a history of pushing boats too hard and he had a demonstrable history of pusing that particular boat too hard from when he took delivery of it.
He has had a littany of breakages on that boat in its short life. Somewhere in one of his blogs he goes through a list of all the major disasters he has been involved with, tagging it with something like: 'not everyone wants to sail with me and I can understand why'.

I don't think it was a problem with the boat, it being a cat, or the weather, gust micro, macro or super-size-me blast from the gods. Better sailed I think it would not have flipped off Niue or anywhere else.

In the last few weeks Tony Bullimore flipped one (in a race, apparently) but he too has a bad record of destroying expensive boats.
And then the other day some goose was here saying his boat should have been doing 14 or 15 knots all the way to the canaries but the sails let him down - He RIPPED all 3 sails: Main, Genoa, Genniker, and the mental pygmy was blaiming everything except the noodle behind the wheel - himself.

And if someone thinks I wouldnt put this to the guy personally, I would. and I have little doubt that he could read it here.

For detail on stuff above the links are in my post #220 and includes some notes like these and from other forum members
Quote:
Add to this question other facts: Ozbullwinkle reminded us the skipper said in his blogs: "We will leave even if we canít find the perfect weather window and take our chances as long as the storm is heading to Tonga we will just run with it."

But may I add this extra line from the skipper: "We had chosen to leave at the first available weather window, on the tail of a low-pressure system, with tailwinds from the SW but the winds were quite fresh, in the high 20's, low 30's and the seas quite strong, several meters high"


cagney also reminds us: "The barometer had dropped only from 1000 mb to 998 mb over the last few hours, which was no cause for alarm"
Cagney: I'm almost speechless...
I hope this post was clear
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Old 19-11-2010, 10:02   #415
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Don, they were reefed. They were working uphill with a reef and a jib in 6 to 12 true. (ie 12 to 20 across the deck). They'd sailed through countless squall lines in this configuration. The one that got them went to 50 knots in less then 30 seconds.

I don't blame the sailors. What are you going to do: fire up the engine, drop the main and roll up the jib every time you see a squal line? On a passage? With two people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
The other lesson learned from Anna is that multihulls require ACTIVE SEAMANSHIP. This means reducing sail BEFORE THE SQUALL HITS. If it's night and you cannot see the squalls, it means reefing at sunset.
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Old 19-11-2010, 10:14   #416
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. What are you going to do: fire up the engine, drop the main and roll up the jib every time you see a squal line? On a passage? With two people?
No.
They were inside.
Someone should have been on deck with their hand on the sheet the strip it off the winch and let it go.
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Old 19-11-2010, 10:23   #417
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But now you're back to actively sailing the boat. Cruisers don't sail that way. You single hand now, Do you take down your sails before a nap?

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No.
They were inside.
Someone should have been on deck with their hand on the sheet the strip it off the winch and let it go.
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Old 19-11-2010, 11:54   #418
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[quick summary: there was a lot of user error in this case]

I hope this post was clear
Yes, that was clear. And it is easy to pile on: the front was on the NZ weather fax, they saw it on the radar stretching from horizon to horizon plotted it for a bit and then decided there couldn't be any wind in it for some reason... So they watched it approach from below and didn't start reacting until the front hit them. At which point is seems like they still might have saved her if they'd dumped the sails quickly but concerns about flogging delayed that... My take is that this was a combination of over-confidence in the boat and ignorance of the conditions with a bit of poor boat handling and a lot of bad luck thrown in for good measure. In short, I think this one should have been avoided. However, I wasn't there and the evidence is incomplete and there are bigger issues.

IME, over-confidence is a cyclical problem -- if things go easily for long enough I get complacent. It is easy enough to empathize with the errors of omission that these guys made given that they had not had any close calls to warn them and were having and easy time of it. There but for the grace of God and all that...

Tom
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Old 19-11-2010, 12:22   #419
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
What are you going to do: fire up the engine, drop the main and roll up the jib every time you see a squal line? On a passage? With two people?
Just for clarity, this was a large frontal system and had been on the WX faxes for days and reporting stations were recording gale force winds in it. I believe it was on the official faxes before they left port and certainly was on them before they met it. Then they saw it on the radar and the bar was very, very low and falling... It was daylight and they had a visual on it.... Not to say that wx can't sneak up and mug you in the dark and all but this wasn't that kind of a feature. So, yes, given the warning they got IMO they should have put on their fowlies and been on hand to reef if they were racing or just tucked another one in and stood by if they weren't. Maybe a contributing factor in this was bragging rights -- guys in big fast multies are expected to make really fast passages and I suppose that might add pressure to sail the boat too hard. If so, a lesson is that if you're going to push you need to keep a very good watch.

Tom
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Old 19-11-2010, 13:08   #420
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Sorry Tom, but it was only a squall.


Setting

On Saturday, July 31, 2010, about 10 a.m. Tongan time, Glen and I escorted John, our fellow crewman who was
returning to the US, to a guestroom in Pangai on the island of Lifuka in the Ha'apai chain of islands in Tonga,
then returned to Anna and hauled the anchor and set sail for Niue, about 250 nm away to the ENE. The winds
were from the E and the SE so that we had to beat into them and tack a few times. The winds were steady,
ranging from about 12 to about 20 knots, and the skies were almost totally overcast, although there were
moments when the sun peeked through. The barometer also was quite consistent, hovering around 1000 mb.
The winds had been stronger, in the 20s, for several days prior and the seas were quite lumpy so that we put the
first reef in the main but used the full jib. We also deployed the lee daggerboard. These conditions prevailed for
over 24 hours.
 

The Event

The following day was Sunday Tongan time (the same as New Zealand time), but because we crossed the
International Date Line and our destination was Niue, we changed our ship's time (as displayed on our main shipí
s clock and all the navigation instruments) at noon to reflect Niue time, so that Sunday became Saturday, again
July 31st.

With a crew of two, even if off-watch one tends to remain in the pilothouse unless sleeping and be readily
available to assist, and such was the case that afternoon, as I had the noon to 1800 (6 p.m.) watch with Glen right
there at my side in the pilothouse. Sometime after noon we were on a starboard tack and were finally able to
achieve a good layline to Niue so that we no longer had to tack, and things seemed to be going our way. The
skies were still cloudy but some time after 1400 we noticed that a portion of the cloud cover to the East was
especially dark. I turned on the radar at the 12-nm range and it showed rain clouds almost all around with rain
clouds to our NE, E, SE, and NW, but the radar displayed no apparent difference or special intensity in the dark
cloud. Nevertheless we were somewhat wary of the dark cloud and paid extra attention to our monitoring of the
weather. The barometer had dropped only from 1000 mb to 998 mb over the preceding few hours, which was no
cause for alarm, and I hoped that the dark cloud held intense rain that would wash the boat and knock down the
seas so that we could shake out the reef in the main and speed up.

Suddenly just after 1500, while observing the anemometer (wind speed and direction indicator), which was
displaying apparent and not true wind since we were beating, I noticed that the wind was backing to the South so
that rather than beating into the wind, suddenly we were on a beam reach. I began turning Anna via the autopilot
so that we would remain head up. Then the wind speed jumped from 18 knots to 25, then to 30, then to 35 in the
blink of an eye, and both Glen and I yelled "let's reef" and we bounded out into the cockpit. When I saw the
anemometer in the cockpit a couple of seconds later, the wind speed showed 45 knots, so I moved to the
autopilot and again tried to head the boat up into the wind, while Glen tried to reef the jib. The wind was
ferocious, however, and Glen could not control the jib outhaul line so that it started flapping wildly. I was afraid we
would rip the sail (which I did last year because of my own operator error) and so shouted at him, "What are you
doing?", then reached over and closed the jammer cleat that prevented more line from getting loose. Realizing
finally that the wind was overpowering us to a perilous extent, I moved towards the mainsheet to release it, but in
a flash we were up in the air, flying a hull as if we were on a Hobie Cat, and I lost my balance and started tumbling
to port. We hung at that position -- roughly 45 deg. -- for a second then over we went. I used the S word. Loudly.

I estimate that the entire sequence from the veering of the wind until capsize took no more than two minutes,
perhaps much less. (It is difficult to reconstruct the timing of the capsize.)

Later Glen said that the highest wind speed he thinks he saw (he is not entirely certain) on the anemometer was
62 knots, and that was some moments before we were blown over so the top wind speed was no doubt much
higher.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmwebb View Post
Just for clarity, this was a large frontal system and had been on the WX faxes for days and reporting stations were recording gale force winds in it. I believe it was on the official faxes before they left port and certainly was on them before they met it. Then they saw it on the radar and the bar was very, very low and falling... It was daylight and they had a visual on it.... Not to say that wx can't sneak up and mug you in the dark and all but this wasn't that kind of a feature. So, yes, given the warning they got IMO they should have put on their fowlies and been on hand to reef if they were racing or just tucked another one in and stood by if they weren't. Maybe a contributing factor in this was bragging rights -- guys in big fast multies are expected to make really fast passages and I suppose that might add pressure to sail the boat too hard. If so, a lesson is that if you're going to push you need to keep a very good watch.

Tom
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