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Old 25-08-2010, 18:00   #301
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Salvor in Possession - What is the lastest with Anna?

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Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle View Post
Changing tack a little here, getting back to the subject of Anna.

Now that Anna is in Tonga and has written on one of her hulls that she is under Salvor possession has anyone heard what the latest is with her?

Has she now been righted and pumped out?

If she is repairable, and the last photo I saw although still upturned looked promising apart from not knowing the extent of the underwater damage, does anyone know if the owner intends to get her back up and going again or is he just gonna leave her to the insurance company, I assume that she was insured.

Are there any up to date photos?
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Yes, take a look at post #247 which has the photo and an accompanying story. I'd like to get an update of what has happened since then.

Steve
Just adding a bit more information to my earlier posts to try and find out what the latest is with Anna herself.

The post #247 that I mention is on Page 17 of this thread.

And I have reshown the photo below that is on that post that shows Salvor in Possession written on the side of her hull.

More details pertaining to this are on the Latitude 38 site on the url shown below:-

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

So, as this update was made 6 days ago I am very interested to hear from anyone who can provide us with a further update on the latest situation on Anna

Come on all you cruisers who are currently in Tonga please do some detective work for us & give us the latest rundown on the situation with hopefully some further pictures.

Steve


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Old 25-08-2010, 20:44   #302
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Anyone remember these "Anti Capsize" devices?





Contained in the upper 6 feet of the mast and deploying like a car airbag after being tripped by a gyro or inclinometer, could show a bit more promise with todays technological advances when compared the 1980's when these systems were first explored.
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Old 26-08-2010, 01:20   #303
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Anyone remember these "Anti Capsize" devices?
Contained in the upper 6 feet of the mast and deploying like a car airbag .
Many cats of the performance breed would not have it as they wouldnt like extra weight up the mast. And they'd be the ones that would need it,
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Old 26-08-2010, 20:57   #304
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But wait, theres more.

Owners Comments about Chris White Designs Catamarans and Trimarans

Using Whites design figures.

White says 61.8 knots
Wharram says 49.8 knots (wharrams formulae)
Shuttleworth says 33.7 knots. (shuttleworths formulae; dynamic component included?)

Whats going on. Whose right and at what windspeed does it really turn over.
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Old 26-08-2010, 22:07   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview View Post
But wait, theres more.

Owners Comments about Chris White Designs Catamarans and Trimarans

Using Whites design figures.

White says 61.8 knots
Wharram says 49.8 knots (wharrams formulae)
Shuttleworth says 33.7 knots. (shuttleworths formulae; dynamic component included?)

Whats going on. Whose right and at what windspeed does it really turn over.

Hey guys,

While reading this is interesting can I ask that we do not reopen the mathematics lessons and all of the calculations in previous threads about what wind strength it will take to capsize a cat like Anna.

My general thoughts are:-

- There is no doubt that the capsize of an Atlantic 57 has been a real eye opener for the vast majority if not all of us including cat designers in general.

- A lot of us did not anticipate a cat of this size coming to this fate, after all it is apparently the largest non racing cat to have capsized.

And we all know & generally agree that:-

- Anna was undercrewed.

- They made mistakes - dumping the mainsail is the first thing they should have done and not the jib.

- The mainsheet should have been in their hand as they knew there were squalls in their area at the time so that they could make an immediate response as soon as they were hit by the squall which COULD have made the difference if whoever was holding it was alert and knew what to do.

- They should have been deeper reefed, should not have been on autopilot etc etc etc.

This accident being the big wake up call to all of us shows that ANY cat can be capsized & it will happen again if crews are not prepared and take appropriate peventative actions. We need to always keep in mind what happened to Anna so that we have all leant a very valuable lesson so that we do not suffer the same fate. I'm sure that a lot of cat skippers will now sail their vessels differently in the future as a result of this.

But having said all of that I'd suggest that Shuttleworth needs to look at his calculation method. He designs great cats but it is hardly an endorsement of his designs if he says 33.7 knots. If this was correct there would be cats falling over all over the place & I would not want to put to sea in a cat that had the potential for capsize in only 33.7 knots.

I'm just hanging out to get an update to my other recent posts about what is happening to Anna in Tonga right now.

Steve
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Old 26-08-2010, 22:23   #306
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Chris White Responds

Obviously I've been following this thread with interest since we are in the final stages of taking delivery of our new deamboat an A57. I've been in communication with Chris and he sent me the following. I mentioned that there was a lot of chatter and some negative and highly speculative comments but he's not familiar with (nor a member of) this message board so I'm forward his reply. As some of you know, Chris is a very thoughtful and I'd say brilliant multihull designer. I think if you read the articles on his website you will see that he's taking a very responsible approach to helping all sailors learn from this experience by adding to the body of knowledge from this unfortunate incident. Imho, exactly what a great designer should do.

Agility

* * *

This is the emailed response I received from Chris White:


"The unfortunate recent accident of the the Atlantic 57, Anna, has the internet chat boards buzzing with comments from both experienced and armchair sailors alike.

"There is no doubt that the Atlantic 57 is a powerful, high performance cruising catamaran. Like any sailboat with excellent performance in light and medium winds it needs to have sail reduced in strong winds. Every competent sailor understands this.

"What is most important now is to take the opportunity, while everyone is paying attention, to examine in some detail how accidents of this type can be prevented. And further, how we might improve designs to allow for better survival of the crew should capsize occur.

"Two essays, a weather analysis and some other pertinent information is presented at the following link.


"Thoughtful comments from multihull sailors are always welcome. Flamethrowers can get a boat and go sailing offshore, then we'll talk."

[signed] CW [Chris White]
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Old 26-08-2010, 23:43   #307
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Thanks for adding these comments Agility and congratulations on the pending delivery of the new A57. I'm envious..
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Old 27-08-2010, 05:57   #308
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Originally Posted by Ozbullwinkle View Post
My general thoughts are:-

- There is no doubt that the capsize of an Atlantic 57 has been a real eye opener for the vast majority if not all of us including cat designers in general.

- A lot of us did not anticipate a cat of this size coming to this fate
At the risk of siding with the Cat folks I don't think (in general?) cat owners were that naive.
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:06   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview View Post
White says 61.8 knots
Wharram says 49.8 knots (wharrams formulae)
Shuttleworth says 33.7 knots. (shuttleworths formulae; dynamic component included?)

Whats going on. Whose right and at what windspeed does it really turn over.
Chris's 62kts was assumming only a single reefed mainsail.

If you use Chris's foprmula and look at other sail combinations you get:

Single reefed main: 62kts
Full main: 49kts
Single reefed main + jib = 49kts
Full main + jib = 41kts
Full main + genoa = 37kts
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:12   #310
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we are in the final stages of taking delivery of our new deamboat an A57. I've been in communication with Chris . . .
Congratulations. I am sure you are eagerly awaiting spring to arrive in Puerto Montt. Where are you heading from there?

I agree, Chris is being pretty sensible and not too defensive about this incident.

If you get a chance, I would be curious what Chris thinks of a fuse in the mainsail clew (set to max righting load) to help prevent capsize - stupid idea or interesting idea?
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:19   #311
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Another multihull designers comments on the capsize. Comments appear at the bottom of the Anna report.

Stability « Catamaran Concepts
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:32   #312
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looking at the picture of the upturned hulls I note what appears to be dagger boards 1st thing "wind up boards up" to prevent one digging in and adding to a tipping action 2nd wind gust factor = 1/2 again so 40kts you must expect 60kts unlike a mono the cat cannot "spill" the wind it just goes faster producing more apparent wind. I have been in 60kts & in a much older , smaller cat & it is not a lot of fun!! But it did not have any sign of tipping.
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:37   #313
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Congratulations. I am sure you are eagerly awaiting spring to arrive in Puerto Montt. Where are you heading from there?

I agree, Chris is being pretty sensible and not too defensive about this incident.

If you get a chance, I would be curious what Chris thinks of a fuse in the mainsail clew (set to max righting load) to help prevent capsize - stupid idea or interesting idea?
We're heading to the Galapagos in October.

As for the fuse idea. Chris and I spent a little time on that topic. I wouldn't want to represent his ideas, but from my limited experience and as a new owner I think it's a bad idea. I suppose it's possible to design but the A57 is not a race boat sailed single handed. If I was going to do a round the world single handed I might consider. I want to have highly reliable systems and not worry about an accidental fuse-break that could do more harm than good. This area of the pacific is treacherous if you read the first hand accounts. I'd be tempted to start with a double reef in that part of the world with squally weather, and motor at ~7 kts (cruising speed) on one engine during the lull.

One of the benefits of such a light high performance catamaran is that she makes a great motor sailor too.
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:55   #314
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Congratulations. I am sure you are eagerly awaiting spring to arrive in Puerto Montt. Where are you heading from there?

I agree, Chris is being pretty sensible and not too defensive about this incident.

If you get a chance, I would be curious what Chris thinks of a fuse in the mainsail clew (set to max righting load) to help prevent capsize - stupid idea or interesting idea?
Regarding the fuse, would you have different sized line or less wraps of line for the clews at the reef points?
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Old 27-08-2010, 08:57   #315
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Another multihull designers comments on the capsize. Comments appear at the bottom of the Anna report.

Stability « Catamaran Concepts
After reading this blog I have to just shake my head. He say's, "The overabundance of opinion and baloney proliferating on the web makes me reluctant to participate in the melee but some limited commentary may assist our customers in assessing the true relevance to their own cruising catamaran experience."

I think if you read the Antares Yachts blog you should also read Chris's knowledgable accounts and real suggestions applicable for all multihull sailors. Then make up your own mind.

I did agree with at least one of the statement from the Antares blog. "Subtly singling him out for a bashing may satisfy some chicken-inspired pecking hierarchy instinct but it is not really appropriate and rather sneaky."

Yes, rather sneaky.
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