Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-03-2012, 19:23   #106
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tampa Florida
Boat: R.WOODS 36ft CATAMARAN
Posts: 505
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Great-let your conscience be your guide.
__________________

__________________
georgetheleo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 01:47   #107
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
Great-let your conscience be your guide.
What a load of rubbish? Let my conscience be my guide????
Mate if you think for one moment you have the power or right to make such a statement as a general warning you are way off the essence or purpose of a forum.
Are you providing irrefutable evidence showing that untinned wiring caused these boats to burn???
Show it please as i'm sure the lawsuits will follow.
Talk about off with the fairies!!!!
__________________

__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 02:34   #108
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
What a load of rubbish? Let my conscience be my guide????
Mate if you think for one moment you have the power or right to make such a statement as a general warning you are way off the essence or purpose of a forum.
Are you providing irrefutable evidence showing that untinned wiring caused these boats to burn???
Show it please as i'm sure the lawsuits will follow.
Talk about off with the fairies!!!!

Irrefutable evidence is hard to come by but have a look at this-

Good Old Boat - March 2002 Electrical Wiring Resistance Test Results


You just can't claim untinned wiring is as good as tinned, because it's not. You can say it's good enough for you, but there is clear evidence that in some circumstances untinned wire splices can become dangerous over time. This is all ancient news, as you can see by the date on the article linked to above. That's why it's surprising and a little insulting that some manufacterers are still using untinned wire.
__________________
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 03:31   #109
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

The tinned wire debate!
Is untinned wire suitable for yacht wiring - probably
Is untined wire safe - probably
Can a good crimp connection be made on new untinned wire - yes
Can you remake a good crimp connection on old untinned wire - hardly ever (at least IME)
Does untinned wire last - it depends
Does untinned wire last longer than tinned wire - no

Which is considered best practice - tinned wire; surely that is a no-brainer.

Would I want a manufacturer of an expensive boat to use best practice - yes but these days it seems what I usually get is a boat built to a certification which almost by definition, means it is built to a minimum standard rather than to best practice.

I think I will stick with DIY, at least I know the standard I am willing to accept; be it best practice or not.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 04:41   #110
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tampa Florida
Boat: R.WOODS 36ft CATAMARAN
Posts: 505
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
What a load of rubbish? Let my conscience be my guide????
Mate if you think for one moment you have the power or right to make such a statement as a general warning you are way off the essence or purpose of a forum.
Are you providing irrefutable evidence showing that untinned wiring caused these boats to burn???
Show it please as i'm sure the lawsuits will follow.
Talk about off with the fairies!!!!
Just saying if you are ok with utinned wire and brass skin fittings on your boaty just keep them--btyw you might note the others commenting here LOL
__________________
georgetheleo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 04:43   #111
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Tampa Florida
Boat: R.WOODS 36ft CATAMARAN
Posts: 505
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

PS Noone will ever know what caused those Lagoons to burn as all the eveidence is totally melted
__________________
georgetheleo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 05:08   #112
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
The tinned wire debate!
Is untinned wire suitable for yacht wiring - probably
Is untined wire safe - probably
Millions of European boats would suggest its safe -absolutly.

Quote:
Can a good crimp connection be made on new untinned wire - yes
Can you remake a good crimp connection on old untinned wire - hardly ever (at least IME)
Does untinned wire last - it depends
Does untinned wire last longer than tinned wire - no
Good crimp on old untinned , what nonsense of course it can be fine if the wire is fine. And 99 times out of 100 it is fine.


No one has done any proper work on wire lifetimes. My experience in a boat built in 1988 is the untinned wiring remains perfect. ,
Which is considered best practice - tinned wire; surely that is a no-brainer.

[/QUOTE]
Would I want a manufacturer of an expensive boat to use best practice - yes but these days it seems what I usually get is a boat built to a certification which almost by definition, means it is built to a minimum standard rather than to best practice.

[/QUOTE]

Certification tends to enforce minimums, anyway CE certification was designed as an internal measure to remove inter EU country approvals that prevented trade. The fact is a boat built to CE standards does comply with at least such standards and they do indeed last the pace in the enviroment


I could turn it around and say should I condem US boats because they have poor AC practice , lack of whole boat ELCI devices, wire nuts, lack of safety sockets etc., interconnection between dc negative and ac earth , whole boat bonding where. Many marine architectures argue against in grp boats etc etc.

No of course not , because these things are small issues that don't infringe of the main issues.




Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 05:16   #113
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetheleo
Just saying if you are ok with utinned wire and brass skin fittings on your boaty just keep them--btyw you might note the others commenting here LOL
Firstly lagoons don't use ordinary shop brass , they use DZR, which while still not as good as bronze , does have in practice a service life in excess of 10 years., especially in boats that do not continuously bond. You do not see hundreds of boats in European boatyards having their skin fittings replaced. In fact it's a rare sight and even rarer to see a "proper" cone bronze seasick in a chandlers.
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 05:18   #114
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
Just saying if you are ok with utinned wire and brass skin fittings on your boaty just keep them--btyw you might note the others commenting here LOL
The statement made concerned the direct assertion that untinned wiring caused the fires.

Brass seacocks/valves where have i said i accept them on a boat??? Do you read before you post????????
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 05:25   #115
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Irrefutable evidence is hard to come by but have a look at this-

Good Old Boat - March 2002 Electrical Wiring Resistance Test Results


You just can't claim untinned wiring is as good as tinned, because it's not. You can say it's good enough for you, but there is clear evidence that in some circumstances untinned wire splices can become dangerous over time. This is all ancient news, as you can see by the date on the article linked to above. That's why it's surprising and a little insulting that some manufacterers are still using untinned wire.
What you have posted is perfectly ok, if you read back you'll note i've used both tinned and untinned, my question was "where is the evidence these boats were destroyed because of untinned wire being used"?
To simply say that's what they were equipped with so therefore thats what caused it is rubbish.
The inference is wrong unless there's evidence.
Statements like that need backing or they are no better than scuttlebutt!
__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 05:49   #116
Registered User
 
dirkdig's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Geelong,Australia
Boat: Lagoon 440 Pathfinder
Posts: 838
My lagoon 2005
= thru hulls no problems
= wiring no problems ever

Someone talks a big game and does not even have a Lagoon
__________________
dirkdig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 06:10   #117
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Millions of European boats would suggest its safe -absolutly.



Good crimp on old untinned , what nonsense of course it can be fine if the wire is fine. And 99 times out of 100 it is fine.


No one has done any proper work on wire lifetimes. My experience in a boat built in 1988 is the untinned wiring remains perfect. ,
Which is considered best practice - tinned wire; surely that is a no-brainer.


Would I want a manufacturer of an expensive boat to use best practice - yes but these days it seems what I usually get is a boat built to a certification which almost by definition, means it is built to a minimum standard rather than to best practice.


Certification tends to enforce minimums, anyway CE certification was designed as an internal measure to remove inter EU country approvals that prevented trade. The fact is a boat built to CE standards does comply with at least such standards and they do indeed last the pace in the enviroment


I could turn it around and say should I condem US boats because they have poor AC practice , lack of whole boat ELCI devices, wire nuts, lack of safety sockets etc., interconnection between dc negative and ac earth , whole boat bonding where. Many marine architectures argue against in grp boats etc etc.

No of course not , because these things are small issues that don't infringe of the main issues.

Dave
I can agree with all of this except for the crimping of old untinned wire. Simple test is try to solder the untinned wire; if it solders easily, without undue effort or techique just using normal tools, resin cored flux solder etc, then it is good to crimp; otherwise you are just crimping in future problems IMO. IME, I rarely see old untinned wire that doesn't have some surface corrosion. YMMV. Perhaps I only see wet boats!!

There is a lot of research on aged aircraft wiring but as that is always tinned, it is not relevant here.

I can't comment on US boats, have absolutly zero experience there!
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 07:00   #118
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Centreville, VA
Boat: Lagoon 410 ELECTRIC!
Posts: 361
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

"PS No one will ever know what caused those Lagoons to burn as all the evidence is totally melted"

Forgive me, I know of the tragic loss of the boat in VA "Mother Ocean" (1995?). I have searched the web for this second Lagoon fire "in the last few months" and haven't found the info. Could someone point me in the right direction.

As for the Brass/Bronze issue I have checked my 2004 410 and found no issues with the Thru-Hulls.

Do to my boat being "Electrical" I was quite pissed that I couldn't get any help from Lagoon on wiring diagrams and to that end have worked on diagrams over the last 2 years. With the help of several other Lagoon owners I hope to verify and complete the drawings this year. I have been to almost every wire throughout EG and with the exception of the Grounding block at the Distribution strip and a few "damp area" wires corrosion has not been found. I have found several (what I consider) undersized wires and loose connections that have been replaced or tightened and I have added terminal strips and an additional sub panel where some idiot had either just tapped or added wires. Not a Lagoon issue. I would guess the Electronics on most boats are after market and have the highest chance of poor quality installation by an owner. The case of tinned vs Non tinned in my option should be a non issue.
If you maintain your boat and it's systems and exercise the valves (I like the grease the T-H and Valves idea) then you shouldn't have a a problem. Yes we all want gold plating on a tin budget but even at the prices paid for these boats there is a point.
By the way those little plastic thingy's on the end of a hose clamp were put there to protect your hands from getting cut up.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE
__________________
Hyprdrv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 07:14   #119
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I can agree with all of this except for the crimping of old untinned wire. Simple test is try to solder the untinned wire; if it solders easily, without undue effort or techique just using normal tools, resin cored flux solder etc, then it is good to crimp; otherwise you are just crimping in future problems IMO. IME, I rarely see old untinned wire that doesn't have some surface corrosion. YMMV. Perhaps I only see wet boats!!

There is a lot of research on aged aircraft wiring but as that is always tinned, it is not relevant here.

I can't comment on US boats, have absolutly zero experience there!
The solder test is meaningless as "wetting out" is a complex area and there are many factors, try the same test on a 5 year old resistor lead, and you'll find similar problems ( these are tinned).

Copper like many metals , form a oxide on its surface, it doesn't mean it about to disappear (funny my local church roof, copper, has been there for 200 years, its not tinned). ( and its right on the sea).

Is tinned wire better then untinned , yes, but the difference is not germain to a discussion on boat wiring as the differences in practice do not matter. Crimp performance is almost always a function of quality crimps and application expertise.

Again the proof of the pudding is in the eating and 1000s of boats so manufactured can't be wrong.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-03-2012, 08:17   #120
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,331
Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
The solder test is meaningless as "wetting out" is a complex area and there are many factors, try the same test on a 5 year old resistor lead, and you'll find similar problems ( these are tinned).

Copper like many metals , form a oxide on its surface, it doesn't mean it about to disappear (funny my local church roof, copper, has been there for 200 years, its not tinned). ( and its right on the sea).

Is tinned wire better then untinned , yes, but the difference is not germain to a discussion on boat wiring as the differences in practice do not matter. Crimp performance is almost always a function of quality crimps and application expertise.

Again the proof of the pudding is in the eating and 1000s of boats so manufactured can't be wrong.

Dave
First let me apologize for the thread drift.
I am starting to think we are just going to have to agree to disagree very soon but before then:-
Solder wetting, while complex is not rocket science especially in relationship to copper. All clean copper will wet with normal soldering techniques but unclean copper won't, it just won't. Crimping depends on squashing both the connector and all the strands together so tight it almost forms a gas tight seal between each and every strand and the connector walls.

As an aside, some say they are gas tight and perhaps so on a perfect crimp but I see many very good crimps made with high end terminals and calibrated crimpers that aren't gas tight so I say "almost" most of the time.

So what happens when you crimp old untinned wire (the stuff that solder won't wet), you end up compressing all the conductors together with a small layer of corrosion between each and very strand. Where you think the corrosion goes when compressed by the crimping action. It doesn't ooze out of the joint or disappear say as a gas, no, it stays in the joint. Does it still conduct electricity, yes of course it does; it is a good joint, well I say no, not good enough to sea with anyway, perhaps (probably?) OK for a weekend sailor.

But lets not take my opinion on it, as soon as I get some spare time, I will dig out some old untinned unsolder-able wire and crimp on some new (quality) terminals and do the same with new untinned wire (of similar gauge) and then run some electrical (resistance and voltage drop) tests as well as mechanical (tension) tests and report the results (on a new thread). If they are the same, you will the first to know . Being as we run a calibration workshop, I think we will be able to trust the results as being fairly accurate.

And without wanting to get into a p*ssing contest; one bored night about 20 years back I calculated I had soldered over 50,000 wires ranging from 4/0 to 32 AWG. Then I had another beer and stopped counting (for ever)! That is not to say that I don't respect Dave's experience and opinion but I do disagree with his viewpoint on this matter. These days I mainly crimp of course (but never on old untinned wire unless it will flow solder).

Oh, I forgot, soldering a 5 year old resistor lead is a doddle and not representative of tarnished multi-stranded untinned cooper conductor that has been exposed to a marine environment (like a in cruising yacht, not a marina queen or the inside of an air-conditioned gin palace).

Please back to normal programming!
__________________

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cheap

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How Many Have a Boat Blog or Website ? Janny Fishing, Recreation & Fun 251 29-03-2017 16:21
Electric Sailboat . . . On The Cheap ? SURV69 Challenges 71 20-05-2015 10:11
Cheap Wind Generator - Anybody Tried One ? Hoohaa Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 55 16-10-2012 22:30
Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls georgetheleo Multihull Sailboats 199 08-04-2012 17:28
Bob - I Have Your Stubby Cooler ! troppo Off Topic Forum 5 29-03-2012 20:11



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.