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Old 25-03-2012, 00:57   #76
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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I have to go with you on this one .. we love our Lagoon 440 but the wiring was and is totally unacceptable for me. We spent a small fortune having ours upgraded where it mattered because I was not satisfied with it.
When we asked Lagoon for a CE certification on the wiring .... guys ... you dont even want me to go there.
Bulkhead separations I believe was a problem with the first Lagoon 500's manufactured under a new and different process ... friends I have who own them say it certainly is not a problem anymore.
I could tell you horror stories about many different models of Cats - I have a mate who does surveys on cats ... could make ones hair stand on end, (certainly not just the French manufactured cats) but why go there and why break down another mans pride and joy which he has worked so hard to purchase and own (have to be a serious JERK doing that or maybe just a 'know it all' - I find most are guys who work on cats but cant afford to buy one themselves - generalising of course).
How does untinned wiring cause fires? Any crimps were done when new so onto uncorroded wire. Surface corrosion of the wire should be entirely superficial.
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Old 25-03-2012, 00:59   #77
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

I guess bad batches, ruthless purchasing, poor QA can lead to a problem. De-zincavation is usually evident by a change in colour of the metal, i would think a valve would be likely to fail in 2 years.

Just turning the valve off or on would quite likely destroy it. A sharp hit would shatter, i think it's all good food for thought/a good warning.

Yearly maintenance should indicate a problem, the pic's brian posted shows poor maintenance who would put steel fittings in combo with poor bronze really needs to think again.

As i said the fine tooth comb will be out next week when i inspect our boat....

Cheers Frank
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Old 25-03-2012, 03:03   #78
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When you check yours there are up to 10 thru hulls on a 440 under the water.
4-6 smaller ones,4 on the intake for each toilet and possibly others for ac or other water intakes.
4 bigger ones for the outlets on the toilets.
Also intake on the genset.

You will see if they have issues pretty easily with a torch inside each bathroom sink cupboard.
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Old 25-03-2012, 03:13   #79
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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When you check yours there are up to 10 thru hulls on a 440 under the water.
4-6 smaller ones,4 on the intake for each toilet and possibly others for ac or other water intakes.
4 bigger ones for the outlets on the toilets.
Also intake on the genset.

You will see if they have issues pretty easily with a torch inside each bathroom sink cupboard.
Cheers i did similar on the Pearl and never saw any issues, i'll be in the Med to look at 2 hoping one of those will be 'the boat.'

It may sound strange but replacing these things to us is not an issue it actually helps in my case for them accepting our offer.

As you know i've built many boats in my time and now in our retirement we are turning to a commercially built yacht when i'm quite capable of building any boat we desire, WHY because a Lagoon ticks the boxes for US!!! Same as it has for you guy's and many others.

I don't doubt there may be some failures however i see no plethora of problems with Lagoons going to the bottom because of crap valves.

Forewarned is forearmed and i thank you very much for the heads up, watch for the piccie's!!!!

Cheers :-)
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Old 25-03-2012, 03:28   #80
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Not that hard to replace,more of a pain having to do them,
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Old 25-03-2012, 03:36   #81
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Not that hard to replace,more of a pain having to do them,
Agree and if that's the case i'll bring one back to Aussie and take it to a NATA lab and have it tested then you'll see some fact's on the forum, if there's a high brass content then the appropriate questions will follow.

What concerns me most in the boats i've looked at is the lack of bonding of all metals. We started the genset on an American boat we viewed (onan 14kva) and the ss raw water pipe under the engine sprayed water, the engineer on board who maintains many boats seemed to be puzzled by my comments that it lacked bonding and that was the cause. And i might add so to did the world famous broker!!!!!! A household name!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 25-03-2012, 04:14   #82
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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How does untinned wiring cause fires? Any crimps were done when new so onto uncorroded wire. Surface corrosion of the wire should be entirely superficial.
Crimps mean nothing to prevent fires from untinned wire. The problem is that as the untinned wire corrodes and gets green patina on it fwom the salt air (and Ive seen it travel under the insulation for 10ft!) the twisted strands no longer conduct as much current between the strands--as this conductivity declines the cables capacity greatly diminishes and the cable heats up at the places of the least conductivity---eventually it burns through and fire results..poof -there goes your boat. Hardly nothing burns hotter, produces more toxic smoke and deadly fumes or is harder to extinguish than a roaring Polyester fiberglass fire.(meaning a boat) Tinned marine grade wire costs about 3-4 times what cheap wire does..in a 44 foot Lagoon probably costs $1500 more than the cheap stuff.........I personally do not know what wiring grade s are in what Lagoons---but a older Privelege 39 I looked at had the cheap non tinned wire and it was all corroded and being totally replaced at great cost and effort.
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Old 25-03-2012, 04:17   #83
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Post script to above----Large battery cables would be most suceptible to this concern as most are unprotected by fuses and the tinned cables in large sizes are very expensive......so the temptation to cut corners is there.........
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Old 25-03-2012, 04:25   #84
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Agree and if that's the case i'll bring one back to Aussie and take it to a NATA lab and have it tested then you'll see some fact's on the forum, if there's a high brass content then the appropriate questions will follow.

What concerns me most in the boats i've looked at is the lack of bonding of all metals. We started the genset on an American boat we viewed (onan 14kva) and the ss raw water pipe under the engine sprayed water, the engineer on board who maintains many boats seemed to be puzzled by my comments that it lacked bonding and that was the cause. And i might add so to did the world famous broker!!!!!! A household name!!!!!!!!!!
The old Bonding of all thru hulls practice has been superceded. it merely conducted electralysis from larges fittings to smaller and made them corrode faster--the systen would be ok if it terminated in a outside the hull zinc that was continuously maintained---but alas these zincs were frequently ignored--and in a wood boat the electrolysis would eat the lignum away from the wood and make it rot ( I had this problem and it ceased when I cut the bonding wires.. Best is to use Silicon bronze or Marelon 'skin fittings'.
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Old 25-03-2012, 04:34   #85
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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The old Bonding of all thru hulls practice has been superceded. it merely conducted electralysis from larges fittings to smaller and made them corrode faster--the systen would be ok if it terminated in a outside the hull zinc that was continuously maintained---but alas these zincs were frequently ignored--and in a wood boat the electrolysis would eat the lignum away from the wood and make it rot ( I had this problem and it ceased when I cut the bonding wires.. Best is to use Silicon bronze or Marelon 'skin fittings'.
Agree on the skin fittings point however the concept is to reduce potential, noble and less noble issues remain.
However a Lagoons generator is mounted 1200mm above the waterline, the common factor is the electroylyte only in that generator there are probably 5 or so metallic components that carry different potential.
A reasonable owner on a well maintained vessel WILL replace zincs no matter the purpose, for the money we are investing slipping is a regular given we are cruisers not sitters so it's vital our bum is clean and our zincs working... lol sounds a bit rude...
Cheers
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Old 25-03-2012, 06:41   #86
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
I have to go with you on this one .. we love our Lagoon 440 but the wiring was and is totally unacceptable for me. We spent a small fortune having ours upgraded where it mattered because I was not satisfied with it.
When we asked Lagoon for a CE certification on the wiring .... guys ... you dont even want me to go there.
You may well have still bought the boat, but wouldn't it have been nice to have known the above beforehand?. on which note..........

Quote:
I could tell you horror stories about many different models of Cats - I have a mate who does surveys on cats ... could make ones hair stand on end, (certainly not just the French manufactured cats) but why go there and why break down another mans pride and joy which he has worked so hard to purchase and own (have to be a serious JERK doing that or maybe just a 'know it all' - I find most are guys who work on cats but cant afford to buy one themselves - generalising of course).
I don't see it as "breaking down another mans pride and joy" (although that may be the motivation of some) more a case of sharing information - both for present and future owners - before they have a problem (involving money or something more serious).....with a possible side benefit that manufacturers may listen when matters become widely known (not that I would hold my breath on that ).

Personally I think that discounting the views of someone simply because of your guesstimate on the size of their bank balance (ability / willingness to sign a loan form?) is kinda shortsighted, if not bizarre - especially if that person does have hands on experiance of sorting problems out. Doesn't mean that things said get taken as gospel (lots of numpties involved in the boat business - at all levels), but many things worth at least hearing for the potential benefit of own pocket - even if then discounted as nonsense.

......and just to clarify that is not a Multi Mono thing, hell - it's not even a boat thing!

Information is king .
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Old 26-03-2012, 21:39   #87
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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How does untinned wiring cause fires? Any crimps were done when new so onto uncorroded wire. Surface corrosion of the wire should be entirely superficial.
Hi Mark,
Ours was more about undersized wiring and voltage drop along the length being unacceptable. We had an electrician check through it and he confirmed it did not meet EU specification. We raised this with the factory and had a totally unsatisfactory response. Im afraid they did not get it right. One simple example was where our chart plotter kept blinking on and off. Raymarine blamed the wiring and the factory blamed Raymarine. We got our guy to upsize the wiring ... bingo ... problem solved! From this point we upsized where it matters and it has made a HUGE difference to our boat. I am NO expert, but I DO NOT want corrosion on ANY of my wiring as it will lead to resistance ... so I am told by the experts anyway!
Impi is our home ... we give her the BEST of everything
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Old 26-03-2012, 21:44   #88
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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You may well have still bought the boat, but wouldn't it have been nice to have known the above beforehand?. on which note..........



I don't see it as "breaking down another mans pride and joy" (although that may be the motivation of some) more a case of sharing information - both for present and future owners - before they have a problem (involving money or something more serious).....with a possible side benefit that manufacturers may listen when matters become widely known (not that I would hold my breath on that ).

Personally I think that discounting the views of someone simply because of your guesstimate on the size of their bank balance (ability / willingness to sign a loan form?) is kinda shortsighted, if not bizarre - especially if that person does have hands on experiance of sorting problems out. Doesn't mean that things said get taken as gospel (lots of numpties involved in the boat business - at all levels), but many things worth at least hearing for the potential benefit of own pocket - even if then discounted as nonsense.

......and just to clarify that is not a Multi Mono thing, hell - it's not even a boat thing!

Information is king .
You make a valid point ... however I think Lagoon and "French made products" were specifically targeted and I from first hand experience can tell you it is a MORE GENERAL PROBLEM worldwide in the manufacture of Cats. I had to make that point clear because it seemed to me someone has it 'in' for a 'specific product' and I find that unacceptable.
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Old 27-03-2012, 16:21   #89
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Just as a aside. European boats are almost never bonded , the practice is Not regarded as a good thing. ( see many articles) with RCDs , no neutral dc negative connections we do not see the issues you guys have.

Tinned wire is not commonly used. My boat is 28 years old it has untinned wire. the wiring is in great shape.

The fact is guys we build a lot of boats here, bad ones get weeded out. They don't sink or burst into flames.

Dave
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Old 27-03-2012, 17:18   #90
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

The boats burning and sinking are european built including the 2 French built Lagoons a 380 and a Moorings 3700 which burnt this past month
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