Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

What do you recommend I use to replace them with?
Boat is in Qld and there is the thru hull plus the valves.

Try Speed Propulsion for their bronze, they have their own onsite foundry.

I have taken mine out and have used fiberglass tube glassed into the hull with a thread tapped on it to take a valve.

[MysticFred]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Yeah, ball valves come in lots of varieties. Polished stainless ball, chromed bronze ball etc. Either way, whether stainless or chromed, there is chrome mixed with the bronze. I'm just not sure ball valves are the way to go with seacocks, regardless of who makes them. Often, the stem that attaches the handle is very small. If jammed, twisting that off would be easy... Nothing simpler than a good old fashioned tapered bronze seacock. Even the Taiwan variety seem to last forever. The boat at left, my passport 47, my tanton 44 and my 32 trawler all had Taiwanese tapered seacocks and never had a failure. They were big , meaty, had huge handles and didnt corrode much. KISS.

Amen!

I have tapered bronze seacocks and a comprehensive bonding system throughout my Shannon 37. A couple strokes with light polishing compound and a good coat of grease and they are smooth as silk and don't weep a drop. Spring maintenance, on the list for this weekend.

In my business you don't take shortcuts in the hull integrity boundary.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by MysticFred

Amen!

I have tapered bronze seacocks and a comprehensive bonding system throughout my Shannon 37. A couple strokes with light polishing compound and a good coat of grease and they are smooth as silk and don't weep a drop. Spring maintenance, on the list for this weekend.

In my business you don't take shortcuts in the hull integrity boundary.

TOTALLY ABSOLUTELY AGREE....And you will get 20 years out of those fittings, the sealant will fail first,,,,,,,

[Greggegner]

I think the important point with the Lagoon is their design ethic. We now know about the fittings. LWhether is it lax purchasing standards or doing the minimum to meet standards, the question is, do they build with the idea that their boats will last. Their boats a not cheap and one would exspect high standards. The fittings are a serious strike against them.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Greggegner

I think the important point with the Lagoon is their design ethic. We now know about the fittings. LWhether is it lax purchasing standards or doing the minimum to meet standards, the question is, do they build with the idea that their boats will last. Their boats a not cheap and one would exspect high standards. The fittings are a serious strike against them.

I doubt if any (mass market - of whatever volume) boats are "Built to last". Simply couldn't sell 'em on price.

Besides, probably find that average ownership period (from new) is under 5 years and certainly under 10 - commercially no point in building a boat that "will last" for the next owner (or 5!). A commercial lesson even Mercedes had to learn.....

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by rtbates

NO WAY!!

Are you sure they are brass not bronze??

IF they are brass, I'd not trust a Lagoon in a pond, or any water deeper than you want to sink in..

There's more to it i think........
1) Why would anyone put a steel fitting in that mix?
2) These pics look like general fittings as well, not just in the bottom of the boat but maybe from the cockpit? Or a locker??
3) Nothing is bonded thats a real bad error?
4) I've google searched and have not found any mention of this problem, is it confined to 420's??
5) What is the actual skin fitting made of? I'm only seeing the results of leaks on crappy ball valves...
6) Is this factory installed or has it been done by aftermarket installers since 2007???

I'll certainly be checking every skin fitting on the 440's i inspect next week (4 of them) as a matter of course so i'll take piccies and post if i see anything similar.....Cheers all.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by amarinesurveyor

The metal they use is a bronze alloy, not brass. Bronze is much stronger than brass, they are two different metals.
Brian

In Europe they are often DZR1 brass which is really a brass hybrid with some tin added to resist corrosion. It is called "dezincification resistant brass" or DZR. This alloy arguably does a less stellar job when compared to an 85-5-5-5 bronze (85% Copper, 5% Lead, 5% Tin & 5% Zinc) which is what is used most often on this side of the pond for "bronze" thru-hulls and seacocks.. DZR1 still has high amounts of zinc in it, on the order of about 35% and 85 three-five has 5% or less....

I have some 80 year old 85-5-5-5 bronze tapered plug seacocks off an old wooden boat they still work and show no signs of dezincificaton.. The European standard for five years service seems an odd one....

Still these valves & thru-hulls in question may not even be DZR1......

[DRS]

Just to be clear here folks Georgetheleo, the originator of this thread, has been removed from the Lagoon forum on Yahoo due to his "aggressive" assertion of, as of yet unproven, statements. (How's that for being politically correct).
As noted here several times brass would be toast in short order. Poor quality brass is the likely problem and there is no way to know if it was OEM equipment or aftermarket. Mine are 12 years old and still going strong. You are still well advised to check / service yours regularly.

[amarinesurveyor]

DRS, I'm pretty sure the ones I've seen are factory installed, and Lagoons4us they are not just the 420, other models have the same metal used. I'm not condemming the builder, I'm just showing examples of what I have seen on these boats. Lagoons are good boats that have certain problems, other boats have other problems, hardly any are perfect.
Brian

[minaret]

Here's a tiny sample of the other threads on just this forum pertaining to this subject. It's not like many other owners have not mentioned the same problem. This is far from new or unknown.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ing-77960.html


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ded-71009.html


And this review from a Lagoon owner who says just what some of you mocked me for saying since I'm not a "multi guy".-

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...iew-36114.html


"INEXCUSABLE MISTAKES:
1) Hull Construction, durability: While all fiberglass boats can become victims of delamination and osmosis, there have been an inordinate number of reports of Lagoons with hull construction and bulkhead separation issues. We've personally met several ex-Lagoon owner's that bought brand new boats, only to have so many issues with them they traded them in for something else. If you are going to buy a Lagoon (new or used!), please ensure that your surveyor thoroughly checks for these issues. Although not specific to just Lagoon, it is terrible to see these issues appearing in many of today's "production" cats and new cat buyers should be aware.
- If Lagoon offers a hull warranty, check to ensure that it covers these types of issues for a minimum of 5 years and is transferable to new owners. And don't take the warranty as proof of good construction - hire a surveyor to review new boats as well as used ones."

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by DRS

Just to be clear here folks Georgetheleo, the originator of this thread, has been removed from the Lagoon forum on Yahoo due to his "aggressive" assertion of, as of yet unproven, statements. (How's that for being politically correct).
As noted here several times brass would be toast in short order. Poor quality brass is the likely problem and there is no way to know if it was OEM equipment or aftermarket. Mine are 12 years old and still going strong. You are still well advised to check / service yours regularly.

Besides the Op is baned somewhere for talking bad about Lagoon, and after deal with dozens of problems in this particular catamaran i can say 100 % sure that the fittings in this boats are pure crap, no bronze at all, call it DZR or whatever, is a fact until Lagoon correct the problem .
Cheers.

[geoleo]

Basically I was banned trying to save lives and boats. They also did not appreciate the fact that many of these boats come with dime store unsafe wiring that is not tinned marine grade. Its possible that the two Lagoon fires that were total losses this past month were caused by this.I also looked at a Privelege 39 and it had non- marine wiring. Im speaking strickly of French built boats. I do believe the American built Lagoon TPI s have bronze or marelon fittings and marine grade tinned wire.

[impi]

INTERESTING TOPIC ... thanks for the 'headsup' as I will be sure to be examining mine more thoroughly now. I spray a product called 'corrosion X' on my fittings from time to time ... it seems to have been fantastic on other metal products on our vessel as it is meant to 'be absorbed' by metals 'to a point' of course. All new thru hull fittings are 'plastic / teflon' based and are really strong!

[impi]

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

Basically I was banned trying to save lives and boats. They also did not appreciate the fact that many of these boats come with dime store unsafe wiring that is not tinned marine grade. Its possible that the two Lagoon fires that were total losses this past month were caused by this.I also looked at a Privelege 39 and it had non- marine wiring. Im speaking strickly of French built boats. I do believe the American built Lagoon TPI s have bronze or marelon fittings and marine grade tinned wire.

I have to go with you on this one .. we love our Lagoon 440 but the wiring was and is totally unacceptable for me. We spent a small fortune having ours upgraded where it mattered because I was not satisfied with it.
When we asked Lagoon for a CE certification on the wiring .... guys ... you dont even want me to go there.
Bulkhead separations I believe was a problem with the first Lagoon 500's manufactured under a new and different process ... friends I have who own them say it certainly is not a problem anymore.
I could tell you horror stories about many different models of Cats - I have a mate who does surveys on cats ... could make ones hair stand on end, (certainly not just the French manufactured cats) but why go there and why break down another mans pride and joy which he has worked so hard to purchase and own (have to be a serious JERK doing that or maybe just a 'know it all' - I find most are guys who work on cats but cant afford to buy one themselves - generalising of course).

[dirkdig]

Checked my thruhulls on my 2005 Lagoon 440 and it's more the valves on them that are heading for replacement.
If the metal is so bad why are mine fine after 7 years.?