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Old 31-03-2012, 21:28   #181
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
Now I'm pissed. some of you guys have come down pretty harshly on Minaret for his views. Here's a heads up. He IS a professional shipwright and has been his whole life. He's seen and worked on more hull bottoms than the rest of us put together. Check out this thread and others by him.
Pics from the Boatyard
Disagree with him but don't insult him. For instance he's a mono guy and I'm a multi guy but I would want him workin' on my boat but I'm too late as he's about to retire after a LIFETIME as a shipwright and a damn good one.
As for as Lagoon goes we have to accept that they are built to a price point and the company is hugely successful for doing so. If they use crappy parts in their Multis then I'm sure they use the same parts in their Monos (Beneteau) They are the Ford of the boating world. Big volume, reasonable price, good products. If you want quality then buy a Swan, Gunboat, Rolls Royce. For mere mortals like me a Lagoon will be just fine. Crappy thruhulls and all.
Everyone be nice.
better to be pissed off than on--quote by ancient philosopher
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Old 31-03-2012, 21:44   #182
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

There you go -from the horses mouth so to speak- a real "wire expert says untinned wire is crap in a boat--as for minaret-his posts favored my view so his buddy sand crab is confused when he says Lagoons wiring and brass skin fittings are cool:bangh ead::vikin g: and he implies that they are cool because Lagoon has sold so many boats----(sorry I cant agree with that 'logic' I will sum up my view on these issues now and forever. " For Lagoon/Benetau and any boat maker through out the world its criminal - for them to save a few hundred dollars on each boat to put known shitty parts in them that will eventually fail and possibly cause great loss of live and property. I condemn these greedy criminal assholes" Thats all folks from me on these subjects.
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Old 31-03-2012, 22:43   #183
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Originally Posted by Greggegner View Post
I worked in the wire industry for 15 year. Bare wire corrodes, this corrosion cause the wire to be brittle. Brittle wire when bent will create higher resistance or break. Extra tin is put on the ends to support better soldering. Depending on the quality of the wire moisture can wick up the wire much farther than you think. Don't over think this. My boat has heavy un-tinned wire (old boat). I replace is as I do projects. One more point solid wire breaks easier that the same size of stranded wire. Use marine rated wire in your boat when you can. The jacket is tough and the stranded wire is tinned.
Totally agree on all points, the downfall of it all is the heavily salt laden atmosphere continuing to suck in moisture wherever the salt collects. As another post pointed out it's impossible to solder oxidised wire unless cleaned.

Many of the boats i built in the early eighties still have the same un-tinned wiring, certainly nowadays it would be nice for new buyers to be given the option of tinned wire but somehow i don't think they would understand. Opting instead for a dishwasher or some such essential item.

Sadly most products are built with some kind of use by date in them but as you correctly point out "don't overthink this".......

As i said earlier next Friday we inspect a number of Lagoon 440's in Europe one in particular we believe we will buy. I will check out everything that is my knowledge on those boats prior to deciding. In particular the items mentioned here on this post.

It will be interesting to turn the valves off and on, somehow i doubt brass was ever used simply because it would fail drastically within 2 years keeping in mind our selection comprises 5 to 6 year old boats.

Mixed into all of this is 'aftermarket additions', air-con mechanics, plumbers and other land based trades simply don't understand the marine environment, i have many stories of serious crap happening due to their lack of knowledge.

Cheers
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:11   #184
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
There you go -from the horses mouth so to speak- a real "wire expert says untinned wire is crap in a boat--as for minaret-his posts favored my view so his buddy sand crab is confused when he says Lagoons wiring and brass skin fittings are cool:bangh ead::vikin g: and he implies that they are cool because Lagoon has sold so many boats----(sorry I cant agree with that 'logic' I will sum up my view on these issues now and forever. " For Lagoon/Benetau and any boat maker through out the world its criminal - for them to save a few hundred dollars on each boat to put known shitty parts in them that will eventually fail and possibly cause great loss of live and property. I condemn these greedy criminal assholes" Thats all folks from me on these subjects.
You really read things totally different to what is written?

WHAT BRASS SKIN FITTINGS????

UNTINNED WIRE IS NOT THE PREFERENCE HOWEVER THERE IS NO LINK THAT ANY LAGOON HAS BURNT FROM HAVING UNTINNED WIRE! If there is direct evidence POST IT so we all can see.

Sandcrab did not say anything about alleged deficiences being cool i really think you need to re-read.

Great loss of life and property? Thank God that's your closing statement, there's a thread elsewhere on this forum regarding what we do for a living, maybe you need to post 'Writer of Fiction"!!!!!!!

Enjoy......
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:47   #185
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My lagoon 440 is my 7 th boat.
It is by far one of the best built boats I have ever had.
The only disappointment is nil support from the French manufacturer.
The thruhulls are not nor ever have been brass.
Throughout the boat the wiring which there is a lot of is in perfect working order.
No sinking
No fires.

Sorry to disappoint anyone who would like to convince otherwise.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:17   #186
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Just to through a little gas on the fire...where do you think the electricity runs on the wire....it is on the surface...where is the corrosion?.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:27   #187
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Originally Posted by Greggegner View Post
Just to through a little gas on the fire...where do you think the electricity runs on the wire....it is on the surface...where is the corrosion?.
Err... no, not really for DC.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:51   #188
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

Can someone have a link to check the truhulls and valves manufacture or suplier to Lagoon in France ??

Trying to found the real name, code, color, material is kinda dificult....
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:58   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggegner
Just to through a little gas on the fire...where do you think the electricity runs on the wire....it is on the surface...where is the corrosion?.
It was early...late night...I'm from Indiana...all excuses for the in correct usage of through...
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:25   #190
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

I wondered how such a simple subject could have 180 posts--now I see the trolls at work--They try to make black and white out of a grey world.

I have seen crimps with untinned wires that still worked after 20 years, and I have seen crimps with tinned wires which completely corroded through after 2 years. Ditto with the corrosion wicking up the wire. It all depends on where the wire is and how wet it gets. However, the tinned wires seem to work a bit better in the wet places.

It is a fact that brass internally corrodes in saltwater, and it doesn't matter if you bond it or not-it will lose almost all its strength . It also happens to cheaper bronzes, but less dramatically. When I replaced my thru-hulls and valves in Turkey I asked the Sunsail Yard manager whether I should use the locally available ones or bring them in from the US. He said"definitely bring your own in", based on his years of experience with the Euro boats. I took his advice, as the consequences of a failure under the waterline are severe. OTOH, I have personally only seen one failure--a bronze tailpiece on a high end boat, which was a lousy Chinese casting.

As a boat owner, you buy the best you can and be prepared for failures and maintenance.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:44   #191
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I wondered how such a simple subject could have 180 posts--now I see the trolls at work--They try to make black and white out of a grey world.

I have seen crimps with untinned wires that still worked after 20 years, and I have seen crimps with tinned wires which completely corroded through after 2 years. Ditto with the corrosion wicking up the wire. It all depends on where the wire is and how wet it gets. However, the tinned wires seem to work a bit better in the wet places.

It is a fact that brass internally corrodes in saltwater, and it doesn't matter if you bond it or not-it will lose almost all its strength . It also happens to cheaper bronzes, but less dramatically. When I replaced my thru-hulls and valves in Turkey I asked the Sunsail Yard manager whether I should use the locally available ones or bring them in from the US. He said"definitely bring your own in", based on his years of experience with the Euro boats. I took his advice, as the consequences of a failure under the waterline are severe. OTOH, I have personally only seen one failure--a bronze tailpiece on a high end boat, which was a lousy Chinese casting.

As a boat owner, you buy the best you can and be prepared for failures and maintenance.

Nail on the head, exactly matches my experience. No one is saying that these boats are doomed to burn or sink, just that the materials being used in them are not the best, and in fact in the US would not even be legal. If they were up front about the cheaper materials being used it wouldn't bother me, but of course they aren't. People should know what they're buying, and most don't even know it's an issue. Which is why they get away with it.
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:02   #192
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I believe the thread was aimed specifically at Lagoon ... Not A professional comment by the so called professionals. Anyway we have now arrived in Martinique ... Beautiful here and many Lagoons ... Dived down to check my thru hulls ... Not one brass fitting?
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:09   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab
Now I'm pissed. some of you guys have come down pretty harshly on Minaret for his views. Here's a heads up. He IS a professional shipwright and has been his whole life. He's seen and worked on more hull bottoms than the rest of us put together. Check out this thread and others by him.
Pics from the Boatyard
Disagree with him but don't insult him. For instance he's a mono guy and I'm a multi guy but I would want him workin' on my boat but I'm too late as he's about to retire after a LIFETIME as a shipwright and a damn good one.
As for as Lagoon goes we have to accept that they are built to a price point and the company is hugely successful for doing so. If they use crappy parts in their Multis then I'm sure they use the same parts in their Monos (Beneteau) They are the Ford of the boating world. Big volume, reasonable price, good products. If you want quality then buy a Swan, Gunboat, Rolls Royce. For mere mortals like me a Lagoon will be just fine. Crappy thruhulls and all.
Everyone be nice.
Be pissed off all you want ... Have him display himself as a professional all he wants ... I simply cannot take him seriously ... Professionals in the industry do not make comments such as he does ... It still amazes me at the lack of comment on the statistics ... Number manufactured verses number burnt or sunk ...
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:14   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab
Now I'm pissed. some of you guys have come down pretty harshly on Minaret for his views. Here's a heads up. He IS a professional shipwright and has been his whole life. He's seen and worked on more hull bottoms than the rest of us put together. Check out this thread and others by him.
Pics from the Boatyard
Disagree with him but don't insult him. For instance he's a mono guy and I'm a multi guy but I would want him workin' on my boat but I'm too late as he's about to retire after a LIFETIME as a shipwright and a damn good one.
As for as Lagoon goes we have to accept that they are built to a price point and the company is hugely successful for doing so. If they use crappy parts in their Multis then I'm sure they use the same parts in their Monos (Beneteau) They are the Ford of the boating world. Big volume, reasonable price, good products. If you want quality then buy a Swan, Gunboat, Rolls Royce. For mere mortals like me a Lagoon will be just fine. Crappy thruhulls and all.
Everyone be nice.
By the way sandcrab ... I
Am
South African and one o the boats you mention tonne superior ... Were nearly in liquidation in SA when I last looked ... as for me ... Could've bought any of the boats you named ... I chose Lagoon ...
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Old 01-04-2012, 17:16   #195
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Re: Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls

IT'S A TROLL, SMELLS LIKE A TROLL, DEFINATE TROLL Propagated by negative people, sad really. Good one IMPI we leave for Europe tomorrow and will be on board our possible choice on Friday, See you somewhere soon on a LAGOOOOOOON!!!!
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