Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

[Donkey]

Really?

Another poster recently stated that the builders are well known to change the design specs so apparently the reality is not really in print.

If you are really interested in a particular boat go through the normal channels. Do not expect to business on a public forum.

While I understand your reasons are genuine there are many on here that have views set in stone that do not match reality.

Example - Should a boat be cored below the waterline? There are strong opinions within this forum. However some within the no camp sprout rubbish that you cannot beach a cored catamaran or indeed one without mini keels. Someone should tell 44C before he does it again. For that matter maybe I should stop doing it too. Still it is a small matter to worry about when I have those noisy, underpowered,wrongly pitched outboards with all that dangerous fuel and a lack of power generating ability. Don't tell anyone about the LPG...shhhh.

You probably get my drift.

Just call the manufacturers of the boats that interest you. Like any other major purchase you should only do so after much research and consideration. Also it is so much fun. There is nothing better than researching a new boat!

[noelex 77]

At the moment a manufacturer who keeps all these details secret can change their laminate schedule substantially without telling anyone, or anyone knowing. Without making these details public even if individual owners are given more information about their boat this information is rarely shared so no one knows if the boats built today are the same, better, or worse than the same model built several years ago.

This is very convenient for the manufacturer, but terrible for consumers of these expensive products.

Manufacturers are under tremendous cost cutting pressures we have seen companies go broke, get taken over, or production shifted overseas. As well as knowing how boat "A" compares to boat "B" we need to know if boat "A" built today is better, worse, or the same as boat "A" built a year ago.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Donkey

Really?

If you are really interested in a particular boat go through the normal channels. Do not expect to business on a public forum.

While I understand your reasons are genuine there are many on here that have views set in stone that do not match reality.

Just call the manufacturers of the boats that interest you. Like any other major purchase you should only do so after much research and consideration. Also it is so much fun. There is nothing better than researching a new boat!

Donkey

We are not a million miles apart in our aims. I have no beef with your intentions.

For the record. This is not my first Rodeo.

If I ask a top representative for information that he admits that he has, but will not supply it to me unless I am a "genuine" buyer, I need to know how he quantifies that statement? Do I have to place cash on a table? Do I have to be vetted for my financial worth? All that comes after the establishment of a customers interest enough to place an offer on the table. If I am paying cash for the vessel, he will not get the information anyway.

All I am asking is HOW the vessel is constructed. The genius part can stay with the designer......... I just want to know how its made. If I go to a car dealer he will tell me. He has to...... the car industry messed up so bad that the government stepped in and gave them minimum standards.

You see I have a problem with both dealers and manufacturers in as much as the information they give me is conflicting.

I spent a long time looking through CF threads for information regarding Seawind. I came across one post from a Seawind dealer that stated Vinyl Ester Resin was only used below the waterline.

A bit later on I noted that a Seawind representative at a boat show stated that polyester resin was used below the waterline from the core inwards.

So which is it? Is the dealer wrong and passing on information to his clients that is incorrect, but has the build notes to give them from the factory?

Is the actual boat show Seawind employee at the boatshow incorrect?

WHAT THE HECK? How the hell would I know unless I see the spec sheets from the builder.

To all boat manufacturers, these are tough times and people are now asking the hard questions. Dont tell me that a boat is built to the highest Australian Standards and then dont publish both your specs and the actual specs of the standard supposedly adhered to. I cant find them in a cursory search on the internet.

That is all Im asking for because so far, all Im getting is static, misleading information and bull dust.

[Donkey]

As this discussion does not really apply to me, I will make this my last post.

So a manufacturer posts his schedules. All that tells you is how they are built today. What about tomorrow? There is much information on the internet that is out-dated and useless. Spruce is no longer the best material mast construction.

So, for the boat you want to purchase, ask for the design schedule and the current lay-up schedule. Are there differences and why?

If a prospective purchaser is going to base their decision on whether a manufacturer is going to engage in undertaking business in a public domain, much disappointment lies ahead.

For those contemplating a new purchase, best of luck with your decisions. I hope it is the right one for you.

[a64pilot]

I think before any of us condemn any manufacturer, we need to contact that manufacturer and at least give them the chance to answer the question.
Dealers and more so salespeople only care about sales, once a boat is sold many don't care anymore
No Weavis I'm not pointing fingers at you , really that was a general comment .

I'm foolish enough to believe Gunboat may well give you their laminate schedule if you ask, what are you going to do with that knowledge? Composites have been around for a day or two, there are no real secret ingredients. Incredibly super lightweight, terribly strong and flexible hulls can be built, they are just Damned expensive is all, beyond the means and need of almost all.

[Donkey]

Sorry Weavis, We posted at the same time.

I agree with everything you say actually. It is just the delivery of question I disagree with.

I have a small, well regarded business with exceptionally happy clients. 100% of my work is referral. I would not engage with a potential clients questions on a public forum. It is not the place. Rightly or wrongly I would also judge them to be tyre kickers. Factor's phone number is a public listing.

To the extent I follow these things Seawind seems to have an excellent reputation for quality product with strong re-sale value. Until recently they have not made boats that fit my interests however the 1160 lite could fit the bill. If you like the boats enough to enquire at shows, move up the chain of command via email. Answers are best in writing!

Good luck

By the way, how do you post a signature?

I have a dragon and I'm not afraid to use it...I'm a Donkey on the edge!

[Cotemar]

WOW, All this fun from a charter boat and crew that made a bad anchoring decision in bad weather.

This charterer just had to relinquish the insurance deposit and then go on his or her merry way and hop on a plane and go home. All was good the next day.

This charterer could care less about the Hull Laminate layup and thickness.

The insurance company that paid the insurance claim for this boat could care less about the Hull Laminate layup and thickness.

Do you really think that this charterer will only be able to charter a Russian Ice breaker next year?

Most likely this charter will be back next year charting the same kind of boat with the same Hull Laminate layup and thickness.

You guys have to get out more. There are thousands of these boats on the water that perform excellent as designed.

Big wind and waves on rock and reef do not care about how much fiber glass or metal you throw at them.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

WOW, All this fun from a charter boat and crew that made a bad anchoring decision in bad weather.

This charterer just had to relinquish the insurance deposit and then go on his or her merry way and hop on a plane and go home. All was good the next day.

This charterer could care less about the Hull Laminate layup and thickness.

The insurance company that paid the insurance claim for this boat could care less about the Hull Laminate layup and thickness.

Do you really think that this charterer will only be able to charter a Russian Ice breaker next year?

Most likely this charter will be back next year charting the same kind of boat with the same Hull Laminate layup and thickness.

You guys have to get out more. There are thousands of these boats on the water that perform excellent as designed.

Big wind and waves on rock and reef do not care about how much fiber glass or metal you throw at them.

You know why?

Because the insurance company recoup their money by raising the rates. It costs them nothing in the long run.

Concorde flew for a long time didnt it. Passed every 'safety" test until one day....... and then the authorities said it was an accident waiting to happen.

Perhaps if someone had asked the right questions in the 70s it might have been a different story.

Im asking.

[smj]

http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/St...as-for-S31.pdf


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[weavis]

Originally Posted by smj

http://www.shuttleworthdesign.com/St...as-for-S31.pdf


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Thats very kind smj.
Thank you.

[smj]

Originally Posted by minaret

That is a ridiculous statement. Fiber orientation only matters with uni, otherwise it's just +45/-45 or 0/90; ie biax or roving. Uni is generally only used in specific places like building chainplates, and will not even be part of the general laminate schedule. Do you guys really think they hand the laminators a book hundreds of pages long when they build the hull parts? An actual laminate schedule is, of necessity, short and concise. Neilpride's example was fair. I'd understand not wanting to share every single detail of construction, with the excuse that it's just too much information, but here you have actual buyers like Weavis being told to go suck an egg when they ask for a simple laminate schedule, on the excuse that it's over his head! Perhaps if everyone published this information the general public might gain a better understanding, especially if they can directly compare the scantlings of different makes and models. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy! Truly, basic hull construction is not rocket science. To state that this information should not be disseminated because no potential client could possibly understand it is belittling, insulting, demeaning, and generally ridiculous. I, too, would happily "move on" from any sales agent who insists on treating me like an idiot. I mean, come on, Weavis is a doctor. If he can figure out how to work on something as complex as the human body, and travel about giving seminars on how to do so, don't you think it's pretty damned insulting to suggest he couldn't possibly understand boat construction?

Wouldn't +45/-45 or 0/90 be fibre orientation?


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[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by weavis

You know why?

Because the insurance company recoup their money by raising the rates. It costs them nothing in the long run.

Concorde flew for a long time didnt it. Passed every 'safety" test until one day....... and then the authorities said it was an accident waiting to happen.

Perhaps if someone had asked the right questions in the 70s it might have been a different story.

Im asking.

The Concorde plane accident was caused by a metal part dropped on the runway by the previous plane on that runway. Then the Concorde ran over the metal part and punctured a tire and then the debris from that tire flew up and punctured the fuel tank.

That accident stopped the Concordes from flying because they were much too expensive to fly and maintain in the first place and were at the end of their 30 year life cycle.

If you want a boat or a house or a plane that will withstand BIG weather than what you’re really asking is for is a Cement BUNKER, deep in a mountain.

[a64pilot]

Cotemar,
As threads seem to often do here, this one has evolved. It doesn't seem to have anything specifically to do with that Lagoon, or I believe Cats even.
I believe it has more to do with interest of how and out of what hulls are made from.
The Pic of the Lagoon was the catalyst is all, I believe.

I think of it this way, I'm buying a truck, I want to know specifics of it's frame construction, what type of steel? Material thickness? Heat treat? Do I expect the Sales person to know this? Dealer?
I believe your going to have to go to the manufacturer to find that info, and just maybe the first question they will ask you is why do you want the info?

Among other things I'm product support for an aircraft manufacturer, I get all kinds of questions, most I can answer, many I have to go to Engineering to get, but absolutely nothing is ever not given out, I'll even send you the factory drawings of any part if you like, even Cessna will do this, but they charge a pretty penny for drawings.
Why would a boat manufacturer be any different?

[Cotemar]

a64pilot

I absolutely agree with boat manufacturer’s giving out Hull laminate thickness and layup schedules to there customers, but not in a “Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand” thread.

Start a new thread and chat it up all you guys want. No worries.

[smj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Cotemar,
As threads seem to often do here, this one has evolved. It doesn't seem to have anything specifically to do with that Lagoon, or I believe Cats even.
I believe it has more to do with interest of how and out of what hulls are made from.
The Pic of the Lagoon was the catalyst is all, I believe.

I think of it this way, I'm buying a truck, I want to know specifics of it's frame construction, what type of steel? Material thickness? Heat treat? Do I expect the Sales person to know this? Dealer?
I believe your going to have to go to the manufacturer to find that info, and just maybe the first question they will ask you is why do you want the info?

Among other things I'm product support for an aircraft manufacturer, I get all kinds of questions, most I can answer, many I have to go to Engineering to get, but absolutely nothing is ever not given out, I'll even send you the factory drawings of any part if you like, even Cessna will do this, but they charge a pretty penny for drawings.
Why would a boat manufacturer be any different?

My guess is if the boat manufacturers passed out all their drawings and specs to anyone there would be some home builders building that design. Maybe different if someone was willing to pay the boat builder a healthy amount for all their specs.
When I build a spec house it takes me about a month to design and draw the prints. After that I have to take the prints to an engineer and have him run the numbers and make notes describing how he wants certain parts of the house built to meet the windstorm codes. At this point I have a lot of time and quite a bit of money into a set of prints that can be used to build a house. Do you think I would give a set of these prints to anyone half way interested in the house? No way!
The difference between the house and a boat is while building the house, the engineer makes periodic visits checking on the build. After the house is built he signs of on the construction and takes full responsibility for the structure. I'm not sure if any boat builders do this, but if they did it may give the buyer a more confident feeling when purchasing.


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