Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 26-09-2014, 08:06   #346
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
My guess is if the boat manufacturers passed out all their drawings and specs to anyone there would be some home builders building that design. Maybe different if someone was willing to pay the boat builder a healthy amount for all their specs.
When I build a spec house it takes me about a month to design and draw the prints. After that I have to take the prints to an engineer and have him run the numbers and make notes describing how he wants certain parts of the house built to meet the windstorm codes. At this point I have a lot of time and quite a bit of money into a set of prints that can be used to build a house. Do you think I would give a set of these prints to anyone half way interested in the house? No way!
The difference between the house and a boat is while building the house, the engineer makes periodic visits checking on the build. After the house is built he signs of on the construction and takes full responsibility for the structure. I'm not sure if any boat builders do this, but if they did it may give the buyer a more confident feeling when purchasing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



How can you build a boat based on a laminate schedule? It's not a lines drawing or table of offsets. The equivalent in house building would be a simple table stating the walls are stick framed 2x4 on a given center, what sort of foundation, and what sort of finish. Nobody is asking for drawings here, it's not required to know the scantlings.
__________________

__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:11   #347
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
How can you build a boat based on a laminate schedule? It's not a lines drawing or table of offsets.

To be able to understand the Shuttleworth laminate schedule I posted, my guess is you would need the full builders drawings for the boat and the help of a naval or structural engineer to run the numbers to see whether the boat as described would be strong enough. So basically just the laminate schedule is worthless unless you have the other pieces to the puzzle. Once given the other pieces to the puzzle you now have all the information to be able to build the boat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________

__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:13   #348
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
To be able to understand the Shuttleworth laminate schedule I posted, my guess is you would need the full builders drawings for the boat and the help of a naval or structural engineer to run the numbers to see whether the boat as described would be strong enough. So basically just the laminate schedule is worthless unless you have the other pieces to the puzzle. Once given the other pieces to the puzzle you now have all the information to be able to build the boat.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Really? Because I looked over it, and found it both incredibly simple and incredibly flexible. More of a loose template for the home builder.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:17   #349
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Really? Because I looked over it, and found it both incredibly simple and incredibly flexible. More of a loose template for the home builder.
Like I said
I know zip about laminate schedules.... but I know men who do........
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:22   #350
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Really? Because I looked over it, and found it both incredibly simple and incredibly flexible. More of a loose template for the home builder.
Yet you dont know the placement of the bulkheads, what the radius of the beams are and how they are attached as well as the shape of the hulls. Sorry but your statement is very hard for me to believe.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:23   #351
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Like I said

I know zip about laminate schedules.... but I know men who do........

My point is, without the prints or hull drawings the laminate schedules are useless.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:23   #352
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,037
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

People have been stealing boat hull designs for years, a successful design emerges just buy one and pop a mold off of it, so common they were called "pop" boats.

Has nothing to do with laminate schedules, build quality or anything else
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:46   #353
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
People have been stealing boat hull designs for years, a successful design emerges just buy one and pop a mold off of it, so common they were called "pop" boats.

Has nothing to do with laminate schedules, build quality or anything else

Sure it does. Without the lamination schedule the "pop" boats have to figure their own lamination schedule, could be better quality could be worse.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-09-2014, 08:49   #354
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Let’s not let this important Boat Hull laminate schedules and thickness discussion end.

Just go here to continue in the fun.

Boat Hull laminate schedules and thickness
__________________
Cotemar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2014, 01:27   #355
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Hey people
This thread is back.
Had a snafu in the back office......... carry on as you were.
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2014, 02:21   #356
Moderator
 
weavis's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: SEVILLE - MALLORCA
Posts: 10,132
Send a message via Skype™ to weavis
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Sure it does. Without the lamination schedule the "pop" boats have to figure their own lamination schedule, could be better quality could be worse.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Richard Woods recently advertised a couple of catamaran molds for sale from good production boat companys. I was tempted....... but dont want to get into a boat building business. It would be nice to make my own though......
__________________
- Never test how deep the water is with both feet -
10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
weavis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2014, 08:24   #357
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Richard Woods recently advertised a couple of catamaran molds for sale from good production boat companys. I was tempted....... but dont want to get into a boat building business. It would be nice to make my own though......



At least you'd know exactly what went into it.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2014, 08:40   #358
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
At least you'd know exactly what went into it.

+1

And if one own moulds it can make building the boat a real bargain with well chosen small yard...

Cheers,

Tomasz
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2014, 09:02   #359
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Went over the posted partial layout for the Shuttle 31. Hard to decipher as it's laid out, as they don't give a single actual product weight, only weights for finished panels after fairing and paint. And it contains zero information as to actual hull construction, that is all for interior construction, transom, bulkheads, etc. But the weights are insanely low, even for a very small cat like that. Most panels appear to have no more than 1/16 of glass on either side, ie a single biax. It mentions the actual laminate schedule in the index on the first page, but that was not posted. This holds very little similarity to a production laminate schedule, it is just part of the instructions for the home builder. I'll throw in a few quotes from it to illuminate how flexible this build is. It will vary dramatically from one home builder to the next.


ADD 25% TO GLASS REQUIREMENT FOR CONNECTIONS+EXTRA GLASS


When you have found the local equivalent materials that are available Calculate the areas required using this list and the laminate specification.



PANEL D Structural Bulkheads (except in way of cross beams)
Standard Boat
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
12mm Airex
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
Weight kgs/m2 5.2
Connection 5



TOPS IDES OF HULLS
As specified on the construction drawing.



This is the only hint as to hull construction here, and it is revealing:





BUILDING IN STRIP PLANKED CEDAR OR DURACORE.
To build the hulls in Strip planked cedar you will have to replace the basic hull which is: 800 Biax at + - 450 15 Airex R63-80 or (Divinycel H30) 800 Biax at + - 450
With:
600 Biax at + - 450 15mm (Finished planed thickness) Cedar 600 Biax at + - 450
OR Strip plank with Baltec Duracore (Balsa with 1 mm Cedar each side) 700 Biax at + - 450 15mm Baltek Duracore 700 Biax at + - 450




So the standard hull is 800 grams per sq meter of biax on either side of 15mm Airex core. Since they don't give any actual product numbers, you are left to figure out how to achieve that on your own. Since the stated weights are for finished panels, including fairing and paint, one certainly can't call that a laminate schedule. But doing the math, 800G= 28.2 oz. A single 3608 of the type mentioned on the IP layup earlier is 1200 G/SqM. So this layup would probably be a single 1708 (@ 600 G/SqM) with fairing and paint. Final thickness of a single 1708 without the fairing or paint=.043".



http://www.fiberglassindustries.com/FabricWeight.htm
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-09-2014, 09:07   #360
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Went over the posted partial layout for the Shuttle 31. Hard to decipher as it's laid out, as they don't give a single actual product weight, only weights for finished panels after fairing and paint. And it contains zero information as to actual hull construction, that is all for interior construction, transom, bulkheads, etc. But the weights are insanely low, even for a very small cat like that. Most panels appear to have no more than 1/16 of glass on either side, ie a single biax. It mentions the actual laminate schedule in the index on the first page, but that was not posted. This holds very little similarity to a production laminate schedule, it is just part of the instructions for the home builder. I'll throw in a few quotes from it to illuminate how flexible this build is. It will vary dramatically from one home builder to the next.


ADD 25% TO GLASS REQUIREMENT FOR CONNECTIONS+EXTRA GLASS


When you have found the local equivalent materials that are available Calculate the areas required using this list and the laminate specification.



PANEL D Structural Bulkheads (except in way of cross beams)
Standard Boat
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
12mm Airex
1 x 800 Biax @ 45 degrees
Weight kgs/m2 5.2
Connection 5



TOPS IDES OF HULLS
As specified on the construction drawing.



This is the only hint as to hull construction here, and it is revealing:





BUILDING IN STRIP PLANKED CEDAR OR DURACORE.
To build the hulls in Strip planked cedar you will have to replace the basic hull which is: 800 Biax at + - 450 15 Airex R63-80 or (Divinycel H30) 800 Biax at + - 450
With:
600 Biax at + - 450 15mm (Finished planed thickness) Cedar 600 Biax at + - 450
OR Strip plank with Baltec Duracore (Balsa with 1 mm Cedar each side) 700 Biax at + - 450 15mm Baltek Duracore 700 Biax at + - 450




So the standard hull is 800 grams per sq meter of biax on either side of 15mm Airex core. Since they don't give any actual product numbers, you are left to figure out how to achieve that on your own. Since the stated weights are for finished panels, including fairing and paint, one certainly can't call that a laminate schedule. But doing the math, 800G= 28.2 oz a single 3608 of the type mentioned on the IP layup earlier is 1200 G/SqM. So this layup would probably be a single 1708 (@ 600 G/SqM) with fairing and paint.
Maybe Shuttleworth doesn't want to give all the information until you pay for the plans. Sounds more than reasonable to me.
__________________

__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lagoon, Seawind, Thailand

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Available: Cross gulf of Thailand, Cambodia - thailand Mrkymo Crew Archives 0 08-05-2012 03:26
Difficult Entry Lagoon Marina - Phuket, Thailand bgrimwade Indian Ocean & Red Sea 17 19-03-2010 17:29
Planning Assistance Needed for Thailand - Indonesia - Thailand Trip raya Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 5 10-02-2010 18:48
Caught the guy who smashed into our boat and fled rebel heart Dollars & Cents 13 11-04-2008 17:52
30 Boats Smashed Jacana Cruising News & Events 8 17-02-2008 03:59



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.